Surviving Incest, Cancel Culture and Childhood Sexual Abuse with Clementine Morrigan

Freya Graf:

This program is brought to you by Pussy Magnets. Put a minge on your friends with a pussy magnet.

Clementine Morrigan:

Welcome, welcome, my lovely lumps. Or should I say, lovely labs.

Freya Graf:

I'm so thrilled to have you here.

Clementine Morrigan:

In the Labia Lounge. We're going to yarn about all things sexuality, womanhood, relationships, intimacy, holistic health and everything in between your legs. Ooh, can't help myself. Anyway, we're going to have vag loads of real chats with real people about real shit. So buckle up, you're about to receive the sex ed that you never had. And have a bloody good laugh while you're at it. Before we dive in, I'd like to respectfully acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land on which I'm recording this. The Wurundjeri people of the Kulin Nation.

Clementine Morrigan:

It's an absolute privilege to be living and creating dope podcast content in naam. And I pay respect to their elders, past, present and emerging. Now, if y' all are ready, let's flappin do this. Oh, my God, is there such thing as too many vagina jokes in the one intro? Whatever.

Freya Graf:

It's my podcast. I'm leaving it in. Don't panic. You're not broken. Your sex education was a piece of shit. Get your flaps out and pull up a couch. It's a Labia lounge. Hey, gang, just before we jump into.

Clementine Morrigan:

This episode, I wanted to offer you an opportunity to access my new mini course for free before I start charging for it in future. It's for people with vulvas and it's quick to complete. It's all about demystifying the female body and pleasure anatomy and getting some basic fundamentals to understand your body better. It's called Pussy Pleasure Roadmap to Bedroom bliss. You can grab it on the freebies page of my website or in the show notes. It's a great little free resource to.

Freya Graf:

Kind of dip your toe in or.

Clementine Morrigan:

Act as a bit of a taster for my work. So if you've ever been curious about this sort of thing and you just.

Freya Graf:

Don'T know where to start, or you want a really quick, easy, accessible, non.

Clementine Morrigan:

Threatening way to get the ball rolling and start working on this stuff, this.

Freya Graf:

Is a great place to start. Hello, all you lovely labial love bumps. Welcome back to the Lounge. This episode we're going to be chatting about surviving childhood sexual abuse and trauma. Perhaps digging a little bit into my lovely guest's personal experience with being cancelled online, which seems sort of unrelated, but I feel like there's some intersections we're going to explore and some pathways to healing and recovery from both of these quite traumatic journeys. And then along with, you know, the usual fun segments to just break it up, have a bit of a laugh, humanize it, and lots of sharing of stories. So my guest today is Clementine Morrigan. Clementine is a writer, zine star and literary punk based in Montreal, Canada.

Freya Graf:

She's been making zines since the year 2000 and has probably made more than 100,000 hand stapled zines over the course of her career, which I love that you're. I mean, that's like, that's zine culture, right? It's like they're handmade. Like you can't be going and getting them all printed off and done by Office Works. Her best selling zine, Love Without Emergency has sold more than 11,000 copies and she has many other zines besides that. Clementine writes essays, literary nonfiction and philosophy and is known for her unflinching approach to deep and difficult topics, as well as her accessible, down to earth use of language. She's known for her work on many topics including surviving incest and other forms of trauma, trauma informed polyamory, bisexual women's sexuality, opposing cancel culture on the left, and finding compassionate non punitive approaches to ending the cycle of violence. So if you want to check out some of those topics, I highly recommend going and checking out Clementine's work. There's obviously way too much to cover in this episode and I had a really hard time dialing in what we would focus on, but she talks on so many fascinating topics, so check it out.

Freya Graf:

She also has a podcast with her partner Jay called Fucking Cancel, which I love, where they develop their thinking on how to build a robust, effective left that doesn't eat itself alive, and where they've had the pleasure of interviewing many important thinkers and writers. She's also published six books over the course of her career, which I'll pop in the show notes for you. And she sometimes teaches workshops on all different topics. So lots in Clementine's wheelhouse. Welcome. I'm so excited to chat with you.

Jay:

Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here.

Clementine Morrigan:

Thank you.

Freya Graf:

I guess, like first, before we just launch into the really like big chunky topics. How the bloody hell are you? What's going on in your world?

Jay:

What is going on? What is going on? I feel like I'm trying to carve out some space in my writing, in my work as an independent writer for a particular project that's sort of what's taking up mental space for me right now is figuring out the balance between kind of like writing in an ongoing way just to make money and survive and. And then having the space to work on larger projects that I want to work on and finding a balance between those things. So, yeah, I'm kind of in, like, pre book writing mode.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. Preach. I get that. That vibe of just sort of spreading yourself across lots of things that you're passionate about. But then, I mean, there's such. I really struggle with that. I feel like I'm doing all things passably, but not as well as I could. And the times that I've had the most nourishing, productive, exciting, enjoyable periods of work is when I've been working on one big project day in, day out.

Freya Graf:

And I'm not trying to juggle a million things because I really struggle with balance. I feel like you have so many different areas and interests and hobbies and like, I guess, like, elements of income. It's so hard. It's so hard.

Jay:

Exactly. So, yeah, I've been figuring some things out. I'm. I'm trying to carve some space so that I can spend some dedicated time on writing a specific project. Yeah.

Clementine Morrigan:

Yeah. Awesome.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. The zine thing is so sick. Like, when it. When I was reading out. I can staple them yourself. It was, like, making me back to, like, there was a time where a friend of mine was doing a zine stall and making zines. I was in, like, a band and we'd made this EP. This was when, like, CDs were a thing.

Freya Graf:

And we had a crafternoon where we were going to do an EP launch, and we got together on this, like, rooftop in Melbourne. And I used to be, like, hella into scrapbooking, so I had shitloads of, like, craft supplies and paper and stickers and, you know, and we just, like, all, as a band, sat down and made, like, a little CD cover out of all the scrapbooking stuff for, like, each individual ep. And it's just like, I feel like people don't do that shit often enough these days, like, hard copies in general of something. But yeah, yeah. I love the grassrootsy, kind of crafty nature of that. Totally.

Jay:

Yeah. I've been making zines since, I guess my first one was probably like the year 2000, so maybe almost since the 90s. So, yeah, like, yeah, yeah.

Clementine Morrigan:

Amazing. Cool.

Freya Graf:

So I guess, like, for context, for listeners, I have actually spoken a fair bit around Cancel Culture on this podcast before. It absolutely terrifies me that there's, like, this much power to ruin someone's life and career and mental health and relationships, you know, and just have this huge impact that's kind of in the hands of just, like, masses of anonymous, you know, online people. When it's just like, so easy for it to be basically like a game of telephone, or actually, this is a cancelable term now, but it used to be called Chinese Whispers for people that don't know what telephone is. And then that just kind of like whips up this, like, frenzy of, like, sharks that smell blood in the water. And I. Yeah, I feel really passionately about it, and I haven't actually experienced it, but I've had quite a lot of people around me, people on this podcast, friends that I know personally that have had experiences with being really, like, drastically and dramatically canceled and it just being fucked. Something that I've noticed. I don't know if you, like, relate to this.

Freya Graf:

You're more across it. I don't know if it's a trend, but something I've noticed in the anecdotal experience is, like, it's pretty much like everyone I know, it's pretty much like women, and they're like, women that are being creative and doing cool shit and are, like, kind of successful and I guess, like, being outspoken and opinionated that are getting, like, torn down like they're a threat. I'm wondering if you've noticed any particular trends around the type of people that get cancelled or the type of movements of cancellation and the flavor of it. Yeah, I mean, that's a twisted, convoluted question, but is any of this landing.

Jay:

So I feel like I'm sort of in this bird's eye view of cancel culture because I have been this outspoken figure on the left critiquing cancel culture. Obviously, over the years, people. People have just constantly, like, brought me their cancellations, you know. So I've seen so many cancellations, like, in so many different subcultures, like, you know, like, left of center and internationally and in so many different contexts, you know. So my perspective is that in terms of identity, like, I think people of all identities are canceled. Like, I don't think that it's necessarily any particular group, but I do think that groups that are marginalized in particular ways, like their cancellation, will often take on that flavor. So just as an example, right? So Jay and I are both canceled, and people talk shit about us all the time, both of us. But the way people talk shit about me is misogynist.

Jay:

So, like, people will always imply that I am dumb. This is like, a very consistent flavor of my cancellation. My haters always say, like, Clementine doesn't even know what she's talking about. They're always criticizing me, like, intellectually and. Or accusing me of plagiarism while never saying, like, where it is that they think I've plagiarized from. But there's a very, like, you know, you're just a girl and you are, you know, too dumb to be, like, sitting at the big boys table. Like, energy to it. And it's really funny because it's like, Jay doesn't get this.

Jay:

Like, Jay gets so much. People talk so much about Jay too, but it's never like, you're dumb. And it's really funny because I'm obviously not dumb and I'm obviously an intelligent woman. And so, like, the fact that they're doing this is just so classically sexist. So in that way, like, I do think that even though all sorts of different groups do get canceled, the way that that cancellation plays out will often be flavored with different types of, you know, prejudice ideas. And also importantly for marginalized people who get canceled, particularly in, like, queer community and trans communities, like, one of the things that's a big problem is that people are in those communities because they probably had a hard time being elsewhere. Like, they've been driven out of other spaces. They have.

Jay:

They need these subcultural spaces because they are queer. They are trans. Right. And so being driven out of those communities is often, like, really fucked up for people, especially people who are marginalized very intensely in the larger culture. And then in terms of, like, types of people beyond, like, identity, like, I do think that it's true that if you put your head up, you're. You're likely to get canceled. So, like, it's very, very correlated with people doing something and getting some attention on them. And like, when I.

Jay:

I've been writing and publishing since I was literally like a child and definitely had like a following in my 20s, but in my early 30s, my Instagram blew up because I started to write, like, little text posts on Instagram that people really liked. So my Instagram blew up and I hit like 10k immediately. As soon as I hit 10k, I started to have, like, anxiety attacks because I knew that it was coming, you know, Like, I knew that getting that much attention on me, even though on the one hand, of course I was excited because, like, I've always been a writer. This is my dream, this is my career, this is what I'm working towards. I'm succeeding Like, I even remember a time when I wrote an article and it was so successful and it went viral. And, like, the anxiety of that caused me to put my Instagram on private, you know, because the attention was so scary, because I was like, someone is going to find a problem with this and someone is going to try to cancel me. And so I live with that anxiety for years. And then when my career finally did actually start to blow up, I was like, fuck.

Jay:

And I made this post being like, you know, we pedestalize, you know, people. And then the opposite side of that, like, the reverse side of the coin is cancellation. So, like, please, like, don't pedestalize. Please don't cancel. Please. Just, like, see artists and leaders and people who are doing political work, people who are doing things, making things happen, just also try to hold on to their humanity and the fact that they're still people who are doing this work. Right? Not symbols. And literally, that was like, I.

Jay:

I hit 10k. And then within, like, five or six months, I was at 50k. So, like, my. On Instagram. This is my Instagram numbers. So, like, obviously I was, like, rapidly gaining, you know, popularity because of my text posts. And so I was so anxious and I just knew it was coming. And within six months of me first blowing up, I was brutally canceled.

Jay:

So, like, to me, it's so obvious, the correlation between getting any kind of, like, success in your work, getting any kind of attention on you, and people finding a reason to tear you down, that they can be justified in, you know, and celebrated and encouraged in.

Freya Graf:

Yeah, yeah. Holy shit. It's just so intense. I feel like the Internet has, like, amplified these, like, patterns in. In humanity to just unnatural proportions. It almost feels a bit like that classic thing of if there's a bully in school, you just kind of look at them and go, oh, well, they're probably doing that bullying to other children because maybe their dad is harsh on them or bullies them or they've experienced some sort of othering, so now they're going to like, other others. And it's almost like people find this sense of belonging and this sense of purpose in, like, different communities, being active online, different, you know, movements or whatever. And if anything else, if anything threatens that or goes against it, it just.

Freya Graf:

Yeah, it's just crazy. It's like. And I'm curious, something that I have heard and I'm not across this is why I'm asking you, is there more cancelling going on in, like, queer LGBTQ A plus communities and stuff? Because, like, I remember hearing that and being like, oh, that really surprises me because you would think that after being othered their whole lives and struggling to find belonging and like needing people to be, you know, more human towards them would lead them to be more human towards others. But then it actually like kind of went in the opposite direction. Like, is that true in your experience?

Jay:

Yeah. So, okay, first let me just say one thing and then I'll get to the queer question. So I just wanted to say as well, I think with the context of cancel culture, part of what's going on, like in terms of why do people attack leaders or why do people attack people who are being successful in their work, right? Why does someone getting attention cause others to want to cancel them? And like, of course jealousy is the answer to that. But I also think we have to look at it like, if we want to be political about this, we have to look at it in the context of capitalism, right? We have to look at it in the context of the fact that most people like hate their jobs. Like most people's living conditions really suck. They hate their work, they don't get to have meaningful work that feels fulfilling for them. They often don't have enough money. They're like stressed about money, right? So seeing someone be successful doing something that is like cool or that they really love and are passionate about, like, I understand why that brings up a certain amount of anger in people.

Jay:

And like that anger, I think should be directed towards capitalists and to those who are, you know, shrinking the realm of possibility for us, for everybody, like for, for all working people, including working artists, you know. And so, yeah, so I just wanted to put that in a political frame as well, around, around people's, people's anger about capitalism. And if we could redirect that away from cancel culture and direct it towards capitalism, like that would be really effective. So there's that. So for the queer question. Yes, absolutely, absolutely. I believe that queer people, queer scenes, like queer culture. And okay, let me be specific.

Jay:

I'm not talking about gay men's culture, I'm talking about queer culture. Meaning because queer is used in kind of different ways, right? And obviously gay men are queer. But there's another way that queer is used that is more like queer women, like sapphic, like subcultures, gender fluid, non binary, trans, like sort of more mixed gender, but generally excluding CIS men and generally excluding gay men, these queer cultures, which is my queer culture. So this is where I come from and speak, speak from as a queer woman. These cultures have a history of being very cancelly Very scary. And I'm just being honest about that. So. And I think that queer people know this and we talk about it privately, but I think maybe it feels, maybe some people would feel like it's not appropriate for me to be talking about it outside of those spaces.

Jay:

You know, obviously I think that like, don't be homophobic in general, right? But I think, look, in trying to understand, like, why would that be happening? Why are queer people like this? I mean, I think there's a lot of things. But you know, we know that, you know, you asked the question, like, okay, if they've been marginalized and if they've been excluded, like, why would they repeat this behavior? But we know that actually trauma is a cycle, right? And people who are traumatized are more likely to go on and traumatize others. People who are really desperate for belonging and who feel really afraid about being cast out out are actually very likely to follow arbitrary rules that they're told to follow in order to like secure that belonging. So like the peer pressure of like one person being like, cancel this person. A lot of queer people are going to say yes because they don't want to lose their community. But I also think in these particular queer cultures that we're talking about, where there's a lot of women, there's a lot of trans people, there's a lot of people who have actually experienced a lot of trauma, right? Like not just homophobic trauma, but also like gender trauma and sexual violence. And so I think a lot of people are carrying a lot of trauma and trauma causes people to act in all sorts of ways, like dysfunctionally, both like acting abusively in relationships, also being like super like unable to discern the difference between conflict and abuse because you have a past history of trauma. So I think there's a lot of that going on with queer people.

Jay:

People and other stuff too, right? Where the like a little bit of a more maybe political answer. I think that's political too, but in a different way. Like we're traumatized. But also I think that queer culture was like very captured by the university, you know, was very captured by a sort of middle class, upwardly mobile, like left adjacent, but really liberal university way of looking at the world. And a lot of queer people, like obviously there are working class queers, but there's a lot of overlap between like queer world and this sort of like academic activisty world. And that academic activist world is a super, super cancelling place. So it makes, it's also I think because of the Venn diagram of Those two things.

Freya Graf:

Yeah, absolutely, yeah. Really resonate with that, the activisty sort of advocacy space. It's like you've, you've had to really like, speak out and believe firmly in things and go against the grain and like you kind of in the habit of like constantly fighting the good fight. And it gives you such a sense of purpose and such a sense of meaning and, you know, also belonging within the community that's also fighting that fight alongside you. And so you're kind of already in this, like, adversarial, like, you know, hyper vigilant state all the time because you're, you know, often in the minority fighting against more mainstream beliefs for something that's really close to your heart. And, and so then that's like, it's easy to see how that would spill over into getting up in arms about things and cancel culture.

Jay:

Yeah. And I also think part of it is scapegoating, right? Like, what's happening is that people feel powerless. They can't actually reach the people that are actually oppressing them. Right. Like, they can't actually reach the billionaires. They. The left has been really ineffective for basically the entire existence that I have been alive, right. Like, I'm almost 40.

Jay:

The left has not been able to. For lots of reasons, for lots of complicated political reasons, neoliberalism has won and the left has been toothless. And so because of this, people have not really seen any real effective change. And so we feel so helpless to. And therefore we really want to take action that is meaningful and effective and works. And so we know that we can take down our community members, right? We can take down that person on Instagram, we can take down like that person we heard rumors about in our scene, whatever. And so it's easy to do that. And it feels like you're doing good in the world and it gives you that dopamine hit of success.

Jay:

And I think that, yeah, like, part of what we need in order to move away from cancel culture is to figure out how to have an effective left that actually gives people meaning, painful wins so that we don't need to do this sort of symbolic action where we sacrifice our fellow, you know, working people to emotionally feel the catharsis of, you know, effective political action.

Freya Graf:

Oh my God, that's so well put. Yeah, yeah, I was, I was sort of thinking along those lines of like, it's kind of the easy target, the low hanging fruit, the vulnerable, you know, sort of runt of the pack that's falling behind that you can kind of pick off easily. Instead of actually going for the main herd, like we do feel so powerless and so helpless and frustrated and impotent so often around creating change. And so it does make a lot of sense. And you know, I feel like in some ways there's been a real, especially, I don't know, heaps about it, but like the kind of like advent of the Internet and then like originally like some of these like chat forums and the movements that happened in this like Internet like counterculture with these kind of these bedroom nerd keyboard warriors that found community and belonging and purpose in that real beginning of the Internet. And then it kind of got commandeered and 4chan went crazy and it's become something really misogynistic and quite toxic. But there's really beautiful intentions and roots to a lot of these things to begin with. And then it just kind of gets distorted and becomes.

Freya Graf:

Is sort of cowardly and misguided, which it's just such a beast to wrangle. I feel like the Internet, I mean, all of it is so frightening what's now possible and that we're all still being so manipulated and turned against each other instead of the powers that be because we're so distracted with all this infighting and all of this picking off the weakness that yeah, we actually aren't effective in terms of creating proper change and big movement. So. Yeah, you did such a good job of explaining that. Yeah, thank you. I'm curious to kind of get into. It seems like completely unrelated, but I know you've had some personal experience with childhood sexual abuse, incest, recovering from trauma. I'm sure your creativity and your writing and your activism has played a really big part in that healing journey.

Freya Graf:

But I want to chat a little bit about the similarities that you see in Cancel Culture and the position that we're put as a victim of being cancelled to also surviving sexual abuse. Because in my mind I'm. In both of those instances, the onus is put on the victim to like prove their truth while going up against far more powerful and overwhelming forces that aren't fcking interested in the truth. And like both of them involve ostracization from either like family or community, you know, stripping of humanity. And I don't know, like, I just sort of like when I was preparing for this interview and I was like, oh, where do we focus? And I'm like, I want to focus on these two things, but what's the intersection? Yeah, and you've experienced being a victim of both and a survivor of both. Like, what are your thoughts Around. Around this.

Jay:

Yeah. I mean, you're absolutely right that there's a lot of echoes in the experience. And I think that that's why it's so, like, traumatic to do this to survivors. You know, I mean, it's traumatic to do it to anyone, but when you're doing it to Survivor, you are actually, like, repeating a very real trauma. Yeah, I mean, I. Before I was canceled, you know, for many years. I mean, I have complex ptsd. I'm an incest survivor.

Jay:

I went down the general path that many incest survivors go down, which is that I went crazy. And so therefore, I experienced a lot more trauma in my late teens and early 20s before starting to go down the path of recovery. And so I've been on that recovery journey for many, many years. And at a certain point, you know, maybe like, eight, nine years ago, I remember being, like, you know, so much more stable and so much more of a secure life, but being like, I just don't trust my friends, and I just don't feel safe and working so hard in therapy to be like, I can trust my friends. Like, I can trust my friends. I have disorganized attachment, and the reason I don't trust my friends is because of all this trauma, you know? And then I was canceled for the most, like, ridiculous, no reason online.

Freya Graf:

And.

Jay:

I literally lost all my relationships overnight. You know, like, almost every single person in my life left my life.

Freya Graf:

Even your friends in person. And so, like, your close friends.

Jay:

Yes, my entire local community, I had to move. I was living in a house that was, like. That there was, like, roommates, and they wanted to, like, do an accountability process. And, like, to be clear, like, for people listening who are like, what the fuck? Because when you say something like that, people are like, okay, well, what did you do? Right? And it's like, just. I've talked about this many times by now, so I'll just sum it up very simply to say, literally, it was the summer of 2020, and I was accused of not sharing about Black Lives Matter. And I said to the person who had made a public story, like, accusing me of that, I just replied and said, hey, if you look at my Instagram, you can see that I have been sharing about it. And this resulted in the person demanding that I deplatform my account and give my account away to a black person specific. And I just didn't reply to that message.

Jay:

That's all that happened. And I was called a white supremacist and literally lost my housing and all my relationships right so that's how like, literally insane it can be.

Freya Graf:

Witch hunting. It's full witch hunt vibes.

Jay:

Yeah. And very dehumanizing. It's like, you were chosen, it's your turn. And now we're all just going to like, project like all this unprocessed stuff that we have, all this anger and pain that we have, and we're going to project it onto you and we're going to exile you and dehumanize you so that we feel better. So I really. Part of what I took from that, though, is that the reason that I couldn't trust my friends is because my friends were not trustworthy. Like, yes, I have trauma, but also I was existing in a culture where I was witnessing this stuff happening around me all the time. Right.

Jay:

I saw other people being canceled around me all the time on the Internet, in my scenes, you know, I got the whispered accusations. I got told, oh, that person's bad news. You shouldn't be friends with them. Like, I experienced all of that around me all the time. And so, of course, I did not feel safe in my community because of course, I was always waiting for the moment that people decided to turn on me, especially as someone who has, like a public facing job, you know, Like, I was always scared that that was going to happen to me. And like, it makes sense that my body, like, didn't feel secure in those friendships because they're not trustworthy the way that they treat people like that, you know? So I think the most devastating thing for me is that cancel culture reproduces a logic that is the same logic that underlies the denial that makes incest function, which is basically that people can either be like people we love, admire, care about, or they can be abusers. They cannot be both. Right? And so this logic is, the underlying logic in abusive families is they're like, no, no, no, no, no, we will not accept these accusations because accepting these accusations in our worldview would mean that we can no longer love or be loved, like, depending on who the person is.

Jay:

Right? So, like, if it's. I will not accept that my husband could have done this because I love my husband and I see him as a full person. And I think that admitting that he committed such an absolutely unthinkable, horrifying crime would mean that I can no longer see him. And like, so there's this fundamental dissociation where the two things are never allowed to exist in the same person. And it's how. It's literally how incest functions because it's a type of dissociation, where it's like, because we want to hold on to the attachment, we literally refuse to see the abuse, right? So cancel culture functions under the same logic where when it accuses someone of being abusive, I mean, first of all, it doesn't even have a discernment process to be like, is this abuse or not? Right? But once it's decided that someone's abusive, and in this case, just for example, let's just say that the person is. Then that person is now a monster that has to be, you know, exiled and dehumanized and also is no longer allowed to have human relationships, right? No one is allowed to be friends with this person. And anyone who continues to be friends with this person will now also be dehumanized and exiled and canceled.

Jay:

And so, like, what this does is it actually helps us to maintain a type of dissociation about the reality that the people who are abusive are also people that we know and love and exist inside our communities. And so when we think that we are creating safety by driving people out, what we're actually doing is saying, don't worry, it's safe here, because this is the inside and that's the outside. And on the inside, we don't have abusers. And I'm like, yes, you do have abusers, right? And so, like, but you. Your insistence that we. That you. That the abuse can only be acknowledged through a process of dehumanization of the abuser means that tons of people, abusers themselves and people who love them, are going to continue to deny abuse because they don't believe they can continue to hold on to the humanity of the abuser under a culture that's dehumanizing them. So to me, I'm just like, it is very connected.

Jay:

This way of dissociating needs to stop in general. It's not helpful. And one of the other things that it erases, that this is something that's very close to my heart, is that many, if not all people who turn out to be abusive come into their first experience of violence as a victim, right? Most people experience violence first as a victim. And so when we are driving out abusers, even talking about abusers who actually are scary abusers and have really been abusive, even if we're dehumanizing them and driving them away from all human community, we are also doing that to someone who is a survivor and who is actually potentially being the way that they're being because of the unprocessed trauma, because we do not support survivors. And so it's very complicated. And then people will always say, well, we have to do something. And with that, I absolutely agree. I just think that we will not be having actually, like, appropriate responses to abuse in our communities for as long as we maintain this dissociation.

Jay:

We have to actually accept that the person both is this person who we may know, who we may respect, admire, possibly love, care about, and also simultaneously, this person did these things. It's the same person.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. I love how much, like, nuance and humanity you bring into it, because it is, you know, generally. And that's like. That's such an issue everywhere now is just. It's. Everything's so polarizing and we're just pitted against each other and it's black and white, and this is good and bad, and it's like, no. Like, no one gets to be that way from nothing. You know, like, it's way more complex than that.

Freya Graf:

But it does sort of like something I've noticed because I work with a lot of clients who have suffered lots of childhood sexual abuse. And something I've noticed is really commonly it's like all or nothing. Like, when they do tell a parent. So say really common case would be the dad has been molesting them. When they tell the mum, the mum is kind of now in this position where it's either, like, minimize and deny that this is even happening and totally not believe the daughter in order to just maintain the status quo and keep the family together and stay with the husband, or it's the other end of the extreme. And I mean, I definitely err on the side of like, well, believe your child and, you know, leave the husband. But also there's like, more nuanced approaches that could be happening.

Jay:

Yes. And in the context of incest. In the context of incest. Okay, this is just my opinion, but I think that it's true in the context of incest. Incest is a family system. It is not a discrete relationship between perpetrator and victim. And so what that means is that the mother or the wife or the partner, whoever, however you want to call that person in a situation where it's patriarchal incest with a male perpetrator, and there is a mother involved in many, if not most of these cases, she's already implicated not in the same way, but she is either allowing or not seeing things that she absolutely should be seeing. And the reason is probably because she comes from a family of incest.

Jay:

Right. And so again, it's like this. The question. I think people, like, misunderstand what I mean, by this, because, like, the question that I want that. That mother to reckon with is not, like, what do you do now that you realize, you know, it's that this man that you love, that you have loved this entire time was. Was already doing this, and you on some level, know what is going on? Why, like, how is your brain going into this dissociative state to not see things that you absolutely should be seeing? And this is a larger cultural. You know, the responsibility doesn't just fall on her. It falls on a larger culture that normalizes the sexual abuse of children and also provides no care for the massive amount of intergenerational trauma that exists.

Jay:

Right? And so for her, it's probably totally normalized because, like, that is what, you know, it like. You know, my family, they're so fucked up. And, like, my childhood was so fucked up. But, like, sincerely, both of my parents really, like, improved from their parents. You know what I mean? Like, their families were even more fucked up. And so to them, they're like, we did good. Like, we. Like, we did less trauma.

Jay:

You know, you still did a lot of drama. That was a lot of trauma. But I think for them, it's really hard. It's part of the reason why it's difficult to own it, because it's like, well, but, you know, look at what happened to us, you know, so, yeah, it's definitely complicated. But, you know, I. There's. So I'm from Canada. I live in Canada.

Jay:

And there was a big, you know, scandal, I guess, last summer about a famous Canadian writer named Alice Monroe. And she writes short stories. Well, she passed away, but she was really a famous, famous Canadiana, like, writer. And so her daughter had been sexually abused by her stepfather, which was Alice Munroe's husband. And, you know, the Alice Munroe, like, supposedly didn't know while she was a child. And then, like, when she found out later, she was horrible about it and reacted really badly and never took responsibility and always stayed with the perpetrator. And so the. The daughter eventually, like, she came out and publicly talked about this, because Alice Monroe is a famous, you know, like, not only a famous writer, but she's considered a feminist, you know.

Jay:

And so the daughter talked about this publicly. And one of the things that she said that I think is so important is that she was like, I'm not actually asking people to, like, get rid of my mother's books from all the shelves or, like, never, never talk about this part of, like, Canadian literary, you know, the canon of Canadian literature. Like, she's an important Canadian writer. But what I would like is for this story, this story of the sexual abuse and my mother's inaction to be able to be held alongside the other stories that people tell about my mother, to hold them together, you know? And I think that that is the thing that people find the hardest to do. Like, when they want to validate that abuse is real. They just want to be like, okay, let's just get rid of the person, everything about the person. But to me, this is a failure to take responsibility for sexual abuse because it's like, okay, we actually have to figure out why this happened, you know, and, like, why it keeps happening. And we can't do that just by throwing people away.

Jay:

We actually have to look at it, you know, so. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Freya Graf:

Something that was super difficult to do because, like, we just really want to categorize and we want to be able to, like, put things in a specific kind of box and feel a specific way about it. And it's very uncomfortable to, like, be able to hold, you know, like, two truths at once. There's so much paradoxical stuff that kind of short circuits my brain half the time. And I'm like, sometimes I feel this way about this, but then also this. And then how do I hold both things at once? Because actually I think both of them are true. And also then, though, what the fuck's the answer? Because I feel like it's then difficult to know what the next step is or what the solution is. And there's no one size fits all. That's obvious.

Clementine Morrigan:

Hey, baby babes. Sorry to interrupt. I just had to pop my head into the lounge here and mention another virtual lounge that I'd love you to get around. It's the Labia Lounge Facebook group that I've created for listeners of the potty to mingle in there you'll find extra bits and bobs, like freebies behind the scenes or discounts for offerings from guests who have been interviewed on the podcast. They'll also be hopefully inspiring, thought provoking conversations and support from a community of labial legends like yourself. My vision for this is that it becomes a really supportive, educational, and hilarious resource for you to have more access to me and a safe space to ask questions you can't ask anywhere else. So head over to the links in the show notes or look up the Labia Lounge group in Facebook and I'll see you in there. And now back to the episode.

Jay:

Yeah, I mean, I think that part of the problem with all of this is that we aren't specific when we're talking about what we mean by solution, right? And there's many different problems. There's many different problems happening and they, they require many different solutions. And so like one of the things that I think is useful is for us to just be very specific and speak very clearly and think very clearly about these problems so that we can try our best to come up with solutions. And like, unfortunately in some cases, like there are no easy solutions because the real answer is people need to transform, right? And this is not something that we can just do this, that and the other and then people will transform. Like there are things we can do that either increase or decrease the likelihood of people transforming and we should definitely, you know, try to increase the likelihood, I think. But there's other questions, right? Like the ultimate goal is for this person to transform, but in the meantime there's other questions such as, you know, like the ongoing safety and boundaries of the person who was abused, for example. Like that can be, that can be protected and addressed to varying degrees of success depending on the situation. But it should be not just the survivor who's dealing with that, right? And then there's obviously like the recovery of the survivor and the recovery of, you know, everything that led to that situation.

Jay:

So there's many, many different things and we need many different solutions. And I think underlying all of it is like basically two main things. We need basically socialism. Like we need people to have access to non coercive, free trauma informed care and enough of their basic needs to be met that they actually have the time and space to work on their trauma. You know, this is, this is fundamental, like, so it's actually about like housing and healthcare and like making sure that people basic needs are met because if they are, they have so much more time and space. But when they're stretched so thin, working horrible hours, they have no time and space to take care of themselves. Of course it's not going to get better. So that's one.

Jay:

And then the other is just basically like trauma theory and people understanding the intergenerational reality of trauma and like how we get out of that cycle instead of just doing the scapegoating or the catharsis of punishment and blame. Because no matter what, like, you know, wherever I really believe this and people can disagree with me on it, but I really believe like if you go back and you look into the past of someone who is abusing people, you will see that they were abused at some point, 100%. And so if you know that, then you, if we're being honest, then we also have to see that person as a survivor. And we also have to understand that like all survivors, in my opinion, all survivors deserve care and support, not just good survivors who manage to not go too crazy or do anything too fucked up, you know, because sometimes the people who have been the most traumatized and have had the worst things happen to them end up behaving in ways that are really, really fucked up. And it's because they're so traumatized, you know, so we have to, like, we have to hold that in our hearts when assessing the situation instead of just thinking of it as, this is just evil coming from nowhere.

Freya Graf:

Yeah, I mean, it's very rarely just evil coming from nowhere. Hey, it's like generations and generations of trauma and abuse. And. Yeah, I mean, we are slowly but surely improving, often generation by generation. But like you said, like, you know, my parents might be like, what do you mean? Like, my parents did this to me. You don't have anything to complain about. And meanwhile, I'm like, well, okay, but you're also like, grooming me not to have any fucking boundaries and like, creating a whole bunch of harm. That, sure, maybe, maybe it's like less than like the harm that your parents did, but it's still pretty problematic and.

Jay:

Traumatizing, like, actually traumatizing. And fundamentally, like, children have developmental needs like this. I, I feel very strongly about, like a rights based framework about this. And like, you know, obviously, like, mothers and parents deserve support and care and they're not getting that. And they. It's not just on the parents. It's a larger cultural thing, like, community needs to step in. This is another reason why we need socialism and actual support so that people can stay at home with their kids and not immediately go back to work, you know, but like, children have developmental needs that are fundamental, that actually have to do with like, our brain development and like our, the entire rest of our lives, you know, like our attachment system is the entire rest of our lives.

Jay:

So even beyond, like, overt forms of abuse, like, I am very critical of lots of normative practices that are just considered totally fine, such as, like, leaving an infant to cry and cry and cry, you know, because it's not acceptable, but because the child thinks they're dying because the child is an infant and doesn't understand what's happening. And so, like, this causes like, huge, huge stress in the body. Right? And so it's like, you know, like, to the boomer generation who are like, yeah, we did so much better Like, I'm like, you guys don't even know. Like, in fact, like, you were not even close.

Freya Graf:

Like, yeah, oh, my God.

Jay:

Like, good, good try. Like, thank you for the effort. But, like, not even close.

Freya Graf:

Not even close. Speaking of things that happened in our sort of formative years that did damage or left a lot to be desired, I want to do the segment, get pregnant and die.

Jay:

Don't have sex because you will get pregnant and die. Don't have sex in the missionary position.

Freya Graf:

Don't have sex standing up.

Jay:

Just don't do it. Promise. Promote.

Freya Graf:

Do you have a story about your sex ed or something that you did learn about or didn't learn about? Any kind of anecdote that feels relevant?

Jay:

So, I mean, I guess my anecdote is it was actually sex ed. It was like, sex ed class in my grade five. That is how I've discovered that I was queer. And it. It was not a positive experience. So basically, I was watching a video that seemed to have been made in the 1980s, I guess, that was talking about, like, puberty and, like, different changes that are happening during puberty. And one of the things that it described was at this time, you might start developing a crush, like, crushes. And this is, like, a certain feeling where you feel, like, butterflies in your stomach and, like, you can't stop thinking about someone.

Jay:

Maybe you smile every time you see them and you get really excited. So these are called crushes. And as I was listening, I was like, oh, my God. Like, this is what I'm feeling towards my best friend Kathleen. And then. And then it said, these are perfectly normal feelings to have about someone of the opposite sex.

Freya Graf:

Oh, God.

Jay:

And so I immediately knew. Like, I immediately understood. And it's like, I had heard about gay people. Like, I didn't first make the connection, but then once they said that, I was like, oh, I'm like one of these types of people. And so, yes, I guess there's many, many, many things that I would change, obviously, about sex ed. And I think going back to what we were just talking about, like, sexual abuse prevention is, like, something that's so major and that, like, kids need to have a way to talk about what's going on in their homes and in various contexts where they may be being abused. I think the queer stuff has improved since my generation. You know, I think there's a lot more representation and images of queer relationships and stuff.

Jay:

And hopefully that, you know, I mean, I know that's being eroded in some places, but I feel like we've come very far with that, but there's still. I mean, yeah, I think sex ed probably still has a really long way to go.

Freya Graf:

Oh, God. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, that's just such a heartbreaking little story of you just sitting in class and like having that moment of like, oh God.

Jay:

I know because it was so. I was so happy at first because I was like, wait a second, like, this is what I feel like. And then, and then I was like, oh, no, I'm gay.

Freya Graf:

Oh, babe. Oh my gosh. I just want to wrap you up. So, yeah, thank you for sharing that. I want to sort of wind our way towards sort of more like constructive, hopeful little messages around, like, what has been helpful for you in your recovery? I'm curious to know. I know that something I've noticed with a lot of sexual assault and childhood sexual abuse survivors is like a real struggle with boundaries and struggle to be attuned to their own needs and their body's signals and things like that and therefore attuned to, to others. I mean, they're attuned, they're hyper vigilant, but not attuned in like a healthy kind of co regulating sort of way. Were you affected by this? How have you overcome that or worked on that?

Jay:

I mean, I feel like I've come so far and I still feel like in some ways I still have so far to go. Like, one way of describing what you're talking about is the word interoception to be able to perceive your body's signals. This is a huge problem for me still. And I've been in therapy for like, you know, 12 years or something and done ayahuasca twice and have done many, many things for my journey of recovery. But it's, it depends on the situation. Like in a situation where I feel very safe, it's way easier. Like if I'm in a very safe, connected relationship, it's way easier for me to, to pay attention to what's happening in my body because it feels safe for that information to be welcomed. And also, like, I don't feel like I need to be putting all my attention on the outside.

Jay:

But unfortunately in, in situations that I find stressful and particularly like new dating situations or like social situations with a lot of external stimulus happening, I can totally ignore my body in like a very intense way, which can be bad. Like, I may not know even that I'm like holding my body in a weird way or that I'm really hot or cold or thirsty. But in terms of recovery, I mean, okay, I think the number One piece of advice that I would give to trauma recovery people is that how you do it matters. It's like, what you do is actually less important than how you do it. And there's many different ways to recover from trauma. There's many different possible modalities and different things you can try that can be useful. And you're probably going to have to try a whole bunch of stuff and be on a journey because it's. Trauma is complicated and hard to unwind.

Jay:

But the most important thing is that, first of all, that you center your agency in this, so you're not approaching trauma recovery in a way where you're looking for somebody else to, like, give you the answer, give you the solution, solve your problem. You're not looking for one modality that if you just do it perfectly, it's going to solve everything, you know, because all of this is still, like, an outsourcing of your power and, like, a wish and a hope to be rescued by someone else who, like, it doesn't reconnect you to your own authority. And so trusting your own authority is really important. And when you're going down that road, you are probably going to hit many different moments where you disagree with someone who is maybe a therapist or is in a position where they are positioned as the authority and you're not. And, like, sometimes it's good to take advice, but sometimes you know in your heart that actually this is not for you. And like, trauma survivors need to. Part of our work is learning how to honor that, you know, so anyone who's acting like they're in charge is just like, stay away from that. And also, like, you have to be super patient and kind with yourself.

Jay:

Unfortunately, it's. It's a. It's a road that you're on. One of the things that helps me to deal with that is that your capacity, at least in my experience, and I think this is true for people with very complex trauma, your capacity is slowly increasing as you're doing this work, right? And so each chapter, as the capacity is increasing, you get to enjoy a bunch of new stuff, and you get a bunch of new challenges. And so. But the stuff you get to enjoy is really cool because it wasn't possible before. And as that increases, more and more stuff becomes possible. And that also creates its own challenges as you learn how to integrate that stuff.

Jay:

But what I can say at the age of 38, having been doing this work pretty much since I was 24 in some form or another, is that it's, like, unbelievable where I am today compared to where I was. And, like, what is possible for me today, both, like, physically in terms of, like, my body, what I can physically feel, sensation that I can physically feel, my capacity to have relationships, and, like, my authenticity. All of it is much, much improved. So I think it's worth it. But it's a very long journey.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. Yeah, I second that. It's a long and winding journey, but it's so worth it. And yeah, it's never like a quick fix, but it's crazy when you look back at different milestones or you just like, actually pause for a second to reflect and you're like, oh, my God, I can't believe that I am now able to do this without even thinking about it. And I can still be relaxed in my body, whereas back then, you know, like, I've got all sorts of things, things in my kind of sexual healing journey that I'm kind of amazed that I've achieved coming from where I was at. So I love. I love that, you know, tip to kind of just like, always, always remind yourself to just reflect on how far you've come and give yourself credit. Because it's not easy.

Freya Graf:

This stuff. I'm curious, like, there's something. It's sort of. Yeah, I'm gonna. I'm like, oh, there's a few ways I could go here. But something that I was thinking about when I was prepping for this episode was like, you've spoken about and written about experiencing incest. And like, when most people think of incest, I guess they think of now with porn culture, they would probably think of some eroticized adult fantasy where siblings or an adult father and an adult daughter or a stepmom or whatever were fucking. And actually, incest is incredibly so much more common.

Freya Graf:

And it's generally when it starts, when there's a child involved and it's like a parent. Nothing hot or erotic about that. How do you feel about the fact that incest has become one of the most highest searched themes on porn sites? It's, like, seen to be this really appealing because of its taboo, nature, edgy thing. But actually, thank you.

Jay:

Thank you for the question.

Freya Graf:

Okay, cool. Yeah, Yeah. I was like, is this. Yeah, but it's just so bizarre to me that all of these things that have been framed in a way that's, like, appealing because of how edgy and taboo and stigmatized it is. They're like fantasies and it's glorified or fetishized and actually, like, just getting down to brass tacks, incest, the most Common form of incest is, like, happening to children. Like, how does that feel?

Jay:

Yeah, I mean, I completely agree with you and I believe that the word incest means the sexual abuse of children within the family. That's what it means. And I don't understand why people want to, like, die on the hill of like, some kind of weird hypothetical situation in which two adults who are definitely not traumatized by incest in their childhood want to for some reason have a sexual and romantic relationship with their, their sibling or family member. Like, first of all, I don't even know about such a situation, but if such a situation would happen, I would immediately suspect that those people had in some way been sexually abused in their childhood, in their home, in their family, okay? And so, but regardless what incest is, is the sexual abuse of children. And it's extremely pervasive and common. Like, tons and tons and tons of children are being sexually abused in their homes. And yet when we, when we want to, like, look into or learn about this form of, you know, violence and oppression that has happened to us, the only thing that is going to come up is porn. Okay? And so, yes, it's a big problem.

Jay:

And I actually think that, you know, like, okay, I think the sex positive side of things has gone too far in the sense of being like, don't yuck anyone's yum. And like, everything is on the table. What is true is that, yes, the space of eroticism is a crazy wacky space in which we process all sorts of stuff and people do all sorts of stuff in the space of the erotic. That's all fine between two consenting adults. I'm not here to tell two consenting adults how they want to process things in the erotic. Right? Like, that can take on lots of, of things that may not seem, I don't know, it may not be a political position that you're taking. It might be a weird thing you're working through in the space of the erotic. Fine.

Jay:

I'm sure lots of incest survivors even enjoy working through themes like that in the space of the erotic. And there's no judgment there. But this is a different thing than a gigantic fucking billion dollar porn industry, okay? The porn industry is an institution of power. And that is a totally different thing than just people's own erotic space. And in fact, it's influencing people's erotic space. Because while I do believe that there are people who want to work through certain things using themes around incest and their sexuality, I believe that definitely way, way, way, way, way, way, way More people are going down that road due to the exposure in porn because it's literally everywhere. Even if you're not looking for incest porn, it's always there. It's like very fucking intense.

Jay:

How present incest porn is in the general porn atmosphere. Something that should be seen as like, you know, a fantasy about a really severe fucking taboo in society because it's about the abuse of children is now just turned into run of the mill pornography that is just everywhere. And I don't know. And I think that people would get, you know, really mad at me for even suggesting this, but I'm like, what does this, does this actually have any impact on actual instances of incest? Right. Especially incest context, because incest is passed down, right? Incest is passed down. There's a, like a French scholar named Dorothy Duty. Dorothy D. My English accent, so.

Jay:

But she's. She wrote a book called Liberty de la Dominacion, the Cradle of Domination. And she says incest exists in a context where it exists already. Right. And I always really love that line. And I think that it's like, really true. I can see it on both sides of my family, like, how it is that they came to reproduce those dynamics. But I also just think about, I don't know, like, for example, the existence of all of these, like blended families that exist now with like stepbrothers and stepsisters.

Jay:

Like, that's still incest. If you're sexually abused by like your stepbrother, it's still going to traumatize you in a way that is. That is violating you in the space of family and home, which is like really, really, really traumatic. And so like, you know, just teenagers having access to this pornography. And it just is concerning to me that this could actually lead to an increase in incest, like actual incest perpetration, you know, and also a way for incest perpetrators to sort of like dissociate about what they're doing. Eroticize it, fetishize it, normalize it. And so I do have a big problem with it. And I don't think that we need so much fucking incest porn everywhere.

Jay:

Like, I don't know why this is such a big controversial statement.

Freya Graf:

I know. And it really, like, as soon as you go for porn, like big porn, people fucking lose it. Like, it's so controversial. Like, I've. I have really strong opinions around this and how porn like, shapes our brain and can rewire our brain in really unhelpful ways. And especially given the age that people are getting onto it. Now I'm like, this is fucking scary, guys. Why are we not.

Jay:

I also think, like, children having unsupervised access to the Internet itself is like a form of sexual abuse. Like, children of our generation. I can only imagine what's happening to children now. Children of our generation who were like, you know, the earliest, like, Internet users, like, yeah, we all saw crazy porn and we didn't have parents to explain any of this to us. And it was very confusing and upsetting what we saw and what we were exposed to as children. And now it's like, even more. And I've talked to women younger than me, Zoomer women who have literally told me that in their dating lives, it's like really normal for men that they just meet on Tinder to like, start choking them or doing behaviors that would have been more high level BDSM type behaviors that you're supposed to be negotiating about and having safety protocols about. But it's just random fucking guys who are probably drunk and don't know what they're doing and have not asked for consent or talked about it, who literally just see this in porn and think that it's like what normal sex is, you know, and like, I want to say, you know, I understand why sex workers or people who have done sex work or just like, people who are very sexual or whatever, why they feel defensive about this topic.

Jay:

Because very often the critiques of pornography have come from, like, a very sex negative place that was intent on, like, shaming sex workers or being misogynist or like devaluing women for wanting a lot of sex. And it's like, again, we can have. Guys, there's a way of having a more nuanced conversation about this. Like, you know, we can have the space of the erotic. We can celebrate different sexual cultures. We can absolutely celebrate sex, sex and sexuality and think that's perfectly healthy and good for it to look many different ways. We can have space for the erotic and we can also critique. We can have rights for sex workers.

Jay:

We can make sure that sex work is decriminalized. We can make sure the sex workers are safe. And we can also be like, okay, what the is going on with this gigantic industry and are we okay with this? Like, it's an anti capitalist thing too? Like, it's like, why are we okay with our sexuality being owned? And. And it's not. And again, it's not our sexuality. Like, people have taken the feminist analysis out of it so much. Like, people will just be like, oh, porn is for everyone. I'm like, is it? I don't fucking think so.

Jay:

I do not think so. And so, like, it's just, like, weird that we're not allowed to acknowledge that. In fact, these huge sexual industries are like 99.999 directed towards men, right? And we have a sexuality too. And it's like, we don't have a gigantic industry, like, dedicated towards us. And, like, this is weird. And so, like, I don't want my sex positivity to just be about protecting, like, pornography. Like, in fact, I think we can do better than that.

Clementine Morrigan:

Excuse this quick interruption. I'm shamelessly seeking reviews and five star ratings for the potty because as I'm sure you've noticed by now, it's pretty fab. And the more people who get to hear it, the more people I can help with it. Reviews and ratings actually do make a big difference to this little independent podcaster. And it's really easy to just quickly show your support by taking that simple act of either leaving five stars for the show on Spotify, or even better, writing a written review and leaving five stars over on Apple Podcasts.

Freya Graf:

Or if you're a real overachiever, you can do them both. That would be mad.

Clementine Morrigan:

If you're writing a review though, just be sure to use G rated words.

Freya Graf:

Because despite the fact that this is.

Clementine Morrigan:

A podcast about sexuality, words like sex can be censored and your review won't make it through the gates. Lame. Anyway, I would personally recommend doing that right now while you remember, just to.

Freya Graf:

Get on top of it and let.

Clementine Morrigan:

Me know you're with me on this journey.

Freya Graf:

Thanks, gang.

Clementine Morrigan:

Enjoy the rest of the epi.

Freya Graf:

I know, I like, because I'm a sex educator and a sex coach and I work in this space. It's so. It's so hairy when you get into the weeds of this because people have now. Yeah, it's like if you attack porn, you're not feminist or you're not sex positive. And I'm like, wow, this is like, you guys honestly whack. I've done a couple of episodes on it and I've got another one in the works because I just think it's a really complex, nuanced topic. And it's absolutely appalling how, like, it's desensitizing us and completely normalizing these, like, quite extreme acts of bdsm. Just like so many teenagers I'm hearing, like, traumatizing each other because, like, half the time the person doing the choking doesn't even want to.

Freya Graf:

They've just seen it and they think that that's what you do, and then neither of them are even.

Jay:

And they think that, you know, into.

Freya Graf:

It or consenting and, you know, back to the, like, incest thing. It's like, yeah, this is. I don't have any data on this. I'm not sure if they've done studies, but is this fucking rewiring our brains to be attracted to incest porn and to find that more desirable and appealing and create fantasies and predilections that we wouldn't have normally had except they've been planted there because you're literally masturbating and entering an altered height, heightened state of consciousness while watching this visual. Like, it's like, that's powerful. That's gonna literally rewire your brain. Guys.

Jay:

Like, and I also think, like, there's this thing about the dopamine, right? And it's like. Because they're always trying to be, like, even more shocking, right? Like, sec. Like, just, a naked woman is not enough. Sex is not enough. Now it has to be, like, the most extreme. You know, the most extreme. Like bdsm. And then from there, it's like, incest is the most extreme.

Jay:

Like, taboo. So that's. We're gonna have incest porn. But I just lost my train of thought. What was I saying?

Freya Graf:

Just, well. Well, it's sort of like. It's like you're needing more and more and more intense stimuli to get the same result.

Jay:

Right.

Freya Graf:

You're numbing.

Jay:

Exactly. And so. Exactly. And so you're also like. I don't know, man. Like, again, like, I don't know if there's been studies on this. I'm sure that people would freak out at me for saying it, but I'm like, I do see how this can lead to people wanting to kind of push boundaries, be transgressive, constantly be, like, seeking thrills, and also to be totally, like, dissatisfied with.

Freya Graf:

Yeah.

Jay:

I don't know. Just, like, normal sex that they might be having, if they're having.

Freya Graf:

That works on this. And studies on this now, it is having a gigantic impact, for sure. It's like. It's completely. It's trauma on people's, like, nervous systems and sexualities. But the thing I want to.

Jay:

And also, I'm just like, misogyny, guys. Misogyny. Like, there's, like. And, like, these representations of women are pretty misogynist. Like, like, are we. And, like, if this is the only relationship that men are having to the concept of women. Like, a lot of guys, they don't even have female friends. And they're just, like, consuming images of women like this.

Jay:

I don't know.

Freya Graf:

Oh, my God, totally. Anyway, something that I want to catch before I forget is, like, the. The thing you said around when you're a survivor of incest and maybe you're starting to, like, come to terms with this and want to do some research and seek some support and, like, find, you know, find other stories or resources to validate your experience and provide you with some scaffolding for your own healing. You Google it and it's just like, porn. That is really sad to me that when you actually start trying to look up some resources to help yourself and put into context what you've experienced, you're actually just getting an onslaught of just, like, glorified, like, eroticized incest porn. And that's really worrying.

Jay:

It's violent. It's really violent. And I think that there's also very little actual support for incest survivors. Like, we know that this is like an epidemic of child abuse that is happening. Like, we know that there's a lot of child sexual abuse in the family, and yet where are the resources for this? Like, where do you go if you're a survivor, to get support? And they're like, in Canada, like, we have public health care, but it's really only psychiatry that is funded. Trying to get trauma care, like, is usually not covered and super hard to access. And so, like, trauma survivors literally do not get our basic needs met. And it's.

Jay:

It's like. It's. Trauma is disabling. Like, this is actually disabling. And it affects you for the rest of your life. It really affects your ability to do so many things, and you tend to need a lot of help with it. And so not only are we, like, searching for. For resources that don't fucking exist, but it's just being thrown in our face that, like, you know, people, like, it's more important for people to make porn about this than it is for people to create resources for incest survivors is pretty fucking disturbing, honestly.

Freya Graf:

It's messed up. Yeah. And like, to. To dig. Dig around and find the resources that do exist. When you're faced with, like, so many search results that are just porn, it's like, how disheartening and discouraging would that be? Like, you're already, like, limited in your capacity. And that's the thing. It's like the onus being put on the victim in all these cases to seek help to prove their truth, to try to speak out, to try to do the things that are going to be helpful for their own healing when they're already coming from such a disenfranchised and traumatized place where their capacity is so low and their inner resources so low.

Freya Graf:

It's just so messed up and unfair. Yeah, it's just such a broken system. I'm just conscious of time and I want to make sure we get a chance to hear a TMI story from you. And I also. I mean, maybe this is part of the TMI story, but. Yeah, I know you said you've been thinking about writing a book that's like a squirting memoir and a love story called the Ontology of Pussy. Color the intrigued, say more on that and maybe weave in a TMI story for us before we wrap up. Tmi.

Freya Graf:

We know this to tmi.

Jay:

We know this.

Freya Graf:

Sure.

Jay:

Yeah. So, yeah, as I was saying at the beginning, like, I'm sort of in the space of wanting to give more attention to a particular project. And it's this book that is like, based on an essay I wrote that is called the Ontology of Pussy. And it's definitely a love story with one of my partners. And it's also about becoming a squirter for the first time in my late 30s. And so maybe that's my TMI story, which is like, basically, you know, in my youth, like in my 20s, I was definitely like, you know, queer and like, sexually educated. Like, I've worked at a sex store before. Like, I know all about this stuff, right? So obviously I knew about squirting and I thought it was interesting, but it was never something that.

Jay:

That's ever happened for me. And I also don't think I tried really hard in part because I have a lot of trauma and like, the technique of it, I don't think was super accessible to me in the earlier parts of my life. But anyway, I had read about. I don't know where this study was from, but I read about it when I was in university where there was a study where they, they like, tested the urine of women who don't squirt like, after their. After an orgasm. And they found that like, the same chemical makeup of like, the urethral sponge liquid was inside their urine. And so it indicates that, like, that every, everyone creates. That like, everyone.

Jay:

All women create the, the. The liquid, but like, some of them just retrograde ejaculate it back into their, into their bladder. So anyway, I thought that was cool and interesting and I basically just gave up. And he. I was like, I'm a retrograde ejaculator And I accept that, you know, it's fine until my late 30s and this current partner of mine, who is a very gifted lover. And I had, like, these incredible experiences of not just, like, squirting, but becoming a squirter. Like, now it's just something that I do you. And so I think that that's really cool because I feel like there's so much, I don't know.

Jay:

Narratives about women's sexuality that are so the opposite of the truth. Like, we're taught that we're hitting an expiration date and, like, you know, things are not sexy anymore, we're not desirable anymore. And, like, I just learned an entire new sexual function of my body, you know, in such a crazy way, in my late 30s. Like, I'm like, that. That's so cool. And I don't think it's a coincidence. Like, I think that women, as we grow in our power and we put up with less bullshit, and we become more confident with what we want and what we don't want. Like, sex obviously becomes hotter, and it becomes easier to have experiences like that because I'm choosing more responsible sexual partners.

Jay:

You know, I'm like, more. And also, what I was saying with the trauma stuff, like, I've done so much trauma work that I'm more able to be in my body. I'm more able to receive that. I'm not trying to be a desirable sex object. I'm trying to, like, actually film the inside of my body. And so that is what led me to just become a squirter.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. I love that for you.

Jay:

Yeah.

Freya Graf:

That's awesome.

Jay:

Yeah.

Freya Graf:

And it does make so much sense.

Jay:

Yeah. Now I want to write a book about it because, I don't know, like, I think I'm going to. I'm gonna try to take some time this summer and do some writing, but it's gonna be about a lot of things. Like. Like, I also have a pretty serious autoimmune condition of the vulva that's, like, pretty scary, called lichen sclerosis. And it's connected to, obviously, trauma. So it's gonna be like, this narrative about, like, trauma. The effects of trauma on the body.

Jay:

The effects of trauma, like, very literally on the pussy, like, through the lens of, like, in sclerosis, like, how traumas physically manifest in the body. But then I want to take it in this different direction where it's like, it doesn't have to be this story about pain and sickness, like, that pleasure itself can be this hugely transformative force, you know? And I want it to be a squirting memoir that is like, you know, after this horrifying journey, like, the end result is like, really hot, embodied pleasure.

Freya Graf:

Fuck, yeah. I can't wait to read that. That sounds awesome and really empowering too, because I feel like a lot of the resources or the info currently, like, in sclerosis are like, yeah, like, not particularly hopeful. It's like, oh, there's not much you can do and it's just going to keep getting worse. And whatever I've been trying to get a guest on to do, do an episode on that because I work with a lot of clients that have lichen sclerosis and I love that you're just going to be like, putting a twist on it and framing it in an empowering light. And everything you said around, like, you know, the older you get and the more you work on your trauma, the more embodied you become, the less performative sex is and the more it's just about following your own pleasure and, like, attuning to your body and your partner. Like, the more orgasmic you become and the better and more relaxed and fun sex becomes. So, yeah, I feel like there's so much to look forward to and it's only going to continue getting better as long as this is like, an area that people, you know, actually just put some love into and work on.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. Your sex life isn't like, I've got an episode literally called your sex life isn't over when you hit menopause. Because so many people that I've interviewed talk about. About how their sex life is literally popping off like never before now that they, you know, they're not sort of in their younger years, like, with hormones of accommodation causing them to, you know, people please. To the point where they're not standing up for what they desire and what feels good for them and having to be forced.

Jay:

Yeah.

Freya Graf:

You know, to actually just put boundaries in place or ask for their needs to be met because their body literally won't allow any less than this anymore. You know, like, yeah, we have so much control over the kind of sex we have and how we experience it. When we actually realize that, you know, it's. It's like when we reclaim it and we reclaim our bodies and. Yeah, I love that.

Jay:

Yeah. I just wanted to say one more thing about the lichen sclerosis, just because maybe you have listeners who have lichen sclerosis. But. But I just think that, like, literally all the resources on lichen sclerosis are literally, like. And trying to Google about that is Like a horror movie, you know, like, they're literally trying to terrify you. And it's horrible because it's, like, literally, like, to me and my understanding this, it's not random that this is happening on your vulva, right? Like, I really think that this is a manifestation of some fucking pain and trauma and stress and, like, having. Having that just the way that the medical world talks about it is so horrible that, like, it's, like, toxic. Like, I actually take it as, like, a toxin.

Jay:

Like, I can't look at it because it makes me go crazy. And I actually realized that, you know, like, of course you need to find your own, you know, strategies for treatment, but, like, as well, and as part of that, for me, like, I have found that actually, like, treating my fucking vulva with, like, dignity and actually, like, honoring my eroticism is fundamental to my healing in this way. And, like, it's not fucking sexy to be so stressed out and looking at all this stuff, right? Like, we need to have narratives about this that are not just, like, reiterating, like, the stress and pain and trauma and. But that are also, like, inviting us to have different kinds of experiences with our vulvas. That can feel nice, you know? So, yeah. Yeah, that's. That's part of what this book is going to be about.

Freya Graf:

Oh, I love that. I fucking love that. Well, let me know when you've written it, because, yeah, I know a lot of people who have received the diagnosis and just, like, it's. Yeah, like, when you Google it, even the way that, like, the doctors have spoken to them and, like, like, talked about it, I am horrified. It's so cruel and it's so unnecessarily, like, doom and gloom, catastrophizing, like, no hope. It's just awful. And, yeah, stressful as.

Jay:

And for anyone with lichen sclerosis or any other forms of chronic illness that the doctors don't understand and just tell you that it's permanent and you're gonna have to take steroids forever and, like. Like, you're basically. I really recommend Gabor Mate's the Myth of Normal and his book when the Body says no. But the Myth of Normal is, like, also includes some of that and is the newer one, so you could start there. But it's a totally different way of looking at what chronic illness actually is, and it's a holistic way that actually understands it as deeply connected to our emotional and relational experiences, not just a random physiological illness that you just got for some reason, you know, and so understanding it in that holistic way I think is really, really, really important and opens up so many more possibilities for your own recovery than what the medical world is offering, you know, So I really recommend that.

Freya Graf:

I'm going to double tap on that. He is incredible. Definitely, definitely recommend those books.

Clementine Morrigan:

Yeah.

Freya Graf:

Beautiful. Okay, well, this has been such a big, big, meandering conversation. I really appreciate your time and your expertise and just like your breadth of experience and yeah, just like thoughtfulness with how you navigate all of these, like, crunchy topics. Is there anything that you kind of want to, like, leave us with or a gap that you want to fill that we haven't covered before we wrap up?

Freya Graf:

Hey, me again. If you'd like to support the potty, and you've already given it to five stars on whatever platform you're listening on, I want to mention that you can buy some really dope merch from the website and get yourself a labia lounge tote Tea togs.

Freya Graf:

Yep, you heard that right.

Freya Graf:

I even have labia lounge bathers or a cute fanny pack if that'd blow your hair back. So if fashion isn't your passion, though, you can donate to my Buy Me a Coffee donation page, which is actually called Buy Me a Soy Chai Latte because I'll be the first to admit I'm a bit of a Melbourne cafe tosser like that. And yes, that is my coffee order. You can do a once off donation or an ongoing membership and sponsor me for as little as three fat ones a month. And I also offer one on one coaching and online courses that'll help you level up your sex life and relationship with yourself and others in a really big way.

Freya Graf:

So every bit helps.

Freya Graf:

Cause it ain't cheap to put out a sweet podcast into the world every week out of my own pocket. So I will be undyingly grateful if you support me and my biz financially in any of these ways. And if you like, I'll even give you a mental BJ with my mind from the lounge itself.

Freya Graf:

Saucy.

Freya Graf:

I'll pop the links in the show notes. Thank you later.

Jay:

I don't think so. I thought it was. I really appreciated your two choices of topics together because I think so often because of my work on Cancel Culture, people put me in this position where, like, they erase the fact that I'm a survivor. You know, like they're. They act as if my opposition to Cancel Culture is me, like, not caring about abuse for some reason, even though abuse has shaped my whole life. And so I really appreciate being able to have Like a survivor focused conversation that is also like, yeah, cancel culture is traumatizing and is not helpful.

Freya Graf:

I'm really glad. I'm really glad. Yeah, I'm. I'm stoked. I was, like, really flustered about this interview because I was like, is this weird to be trying to, like, shoehorn these two things into the one episode? How am I going to title it? How? Like, you know, I think. Yeah. And actually I just really wanted to follow my curiosity and, like, touch on both of those things and I saw that there was so much overlap and, yeah, I'm glad we got an opportunity to cover off all of that and introduce the nuance and the humanity. And I just wish and hope that people will, I guess, just reflect and take a beat before they make assumptions or they jump to conclusions or they sort of jump on a bandwagon.

Freya Graf:

Because there's real humans behind the screen and behind all of these accusations or stories, there's actually, like, far more complex, nuanced stories and truths that I think people have lost interest in digging further to find. And it's such a problem of the modern world and rage bait and clickbait and media and the Internet. It just really makes me so sad. And everyone I've spoken to that's been cancelled, absolutely didn't deserve it and did fucking nothing, you know, and it just went so out of control and it's just devastating, the effects. Yeah. So I'm really sorry that you had to go through that. And on top of the fact that you were already in a position of, you know, surviving a lot of trauma, it's just sometimes it just feels like it's such a pile on, you know? Yeah, yeah. But I think what you've done with it and, like, what you're doing with it is.

Freya Graf:

Is powerful. So, yeah, good on you.

Jay:

Thank you. Thank you.

Freya Graf:

I'll put links to all of your work in the show notes and yeah, just really appreciate your authenticity, my love.

Jay:

Thank you and thanks for having me on. It was great.

Clementine Morrigan:

And that's it, darling hearts, thanks for stopping by the Labia Lounge. Your bum groove in the couch will be right where you left it, just waiting for you to sink back in for some. Some more double L action. Next time. If you'd be a dear and subscribe, share this episode or leave a review on itunes. Then you can pat yourself on the snatch, because that's a downright act of sex positive feminist activism. And you'd be supporting my vision to educate, empower, demystify and destigmatize with this here podcast. I'm also always open to feedback, topic ideas that you'd love to hear, covered questions or guest suggestions.

Clementine Morrigan:

So feel free to get in touch via my website or over on Insta. You can also send me in TMI stories to be shared anonymously on the pod. My handle is freyagrafthelabia Lounge. If my account hasn't been deleted for being too sex positive, which is always a possibility with censorship. But just in case the chronic censorship finally does obliterate my social channels, I'd highly recommend going and joining my members mailing list and snagging yourself some fun freebies for the trouble at www.freyagraf.com freebies. Anyway, later labial legends. See you next time.