Psychedelic Assisted Healing and Trauma Therapy with Micah Stover
Freya Graf:
Welcome, welcome, my lovely lumps. Or should I say, lovely labs. I'm so thrilled to have you here in the Labia Lounge. We're going to yarn about all things sexuality, womanhood, relationships, intimacy, holistic health and everything in between your legs. Ooh, can't help myself. Anyway, we're going to have vag loads of real chats with real people about real shit. So buckle up, you're about to receive the sex ed that you never had. And have a bloody good laugh while you're at it.
Freya Graf:
Before we dive in, I'd like to respectfully acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land on which I'm recording this. The Wurundjeri people of the Kulin Nation. It's an absolute privilege to be living and creating dope podcast content in naam. And I pay respect to their elders, past, present and emerging. Now, if y' all are ready, let's flappin do this. Oh, my God. Is there such thing as too many vagina jokes in the one intro? Whatever. It's my podcast.
Freya Graf:
I'm leaving it in.
Freya Graf:
Hey, gang, just before we jump into this episode, I wanted to offer you an opportunity to access my new mini course for free before I start charging for it in future. It's for people with vulvas and it's quick to complete. It's all about demystifying the female body and pleasure anatomy and getting some basic fundamentals to understand your body better. It's called Pussy Pleasure Roadmap to bedroom bliss. You can grab it on the freebies page of my website or in the show notes. It's a great little free resource to kind of dip your toe in or act as a bit of a taster for my work. So if you've ever been curious about this sort of thing and you just don't know where to start, or you want a really quick, easy, accessible, non threatening way to get the ball rolling and start working on this stuff, this is a great place to start.
Freya Graf:
Hello, my labial legends. Welcome back to the Lounge. Pull yourselves up a clique cushion, get comfy, because this one's going to be a really beautiful, deep dive into a topic that is very misunderstood and often stigmatized, often taboo. As with a lot of topics that I cover today, we're going to be talking about psychedelic assisted therapy and trauma healing. And we're going to be approaching it through an intersectional feminist lens that combines my wonderful guests knowledge and experience in the realms of indigenous wisdom and protocols surrounding plant medicine and scientifically backed research. So for those tuning in recently to this podcast, I've actually done a couple of episodes along these lines in the past. So if you're interested in this stuff, you can search up mushrooms for psychedelic healing for the whole family that I did with Mama Dellamico. And there's also an episode with Charlie Winninger, the author of Listening to Ecstasy and his beautiful wife Shelley that's called the Transformative Power of mdma.
Freya Graf:
So I've sort of touched on these topics a bit before, but it's time for a freshie. A bit about my guest though, before we launch in. So descended from a lineage of midwives in the Deep South, Micah Stover is a survivor of sexual and religious trauma. She emerged from a deeply misogynistic culture in which the women were persecuted for the healing powers they held. Following a traumatic birth, herself and near death experience, Micah began a psychedelic healing journey that transformed her life. Micah is trained and certified in internal family systems Psychedelic Somatic process and has over six years of indigenous study. She has a BA in Philosophy with an emphasis on Buddhist Studies and an MA in Psychoanalysis and Feminist Theory. Damn girl.
Freya Graf:
Maika is also the author of Healing Innovative Therapies for Trauma and Transformation. Her work revolves around supporting survivors in their path to reclaim, agency and embodiment from systemic patriarchal oppression. She devotes a majority of time to teaching courses on harm reduction, conscious consent, and the balance of indigenous wisdom and scientific research as it pertains to the safe application and integration of psychedelic assisted therapy. Beyond this, Micah is a mother to three beautiful children. She divides her time between Mexico and the US seeking to cultivate a global village of care and consciousness for herself, her children, and all those in her care. Oh my goodness. Welcome to the Labia Lounge, Micah. I'm so thrilled to be talking to you.
Micah:
I'm so happy to be here. Thank you for having me and inviting me.
Freya Graf:
Oh cool. I can't wait to get stuck in. It's a big topic. I'm sure we've both got a lot to explore and discuss on this, but I thought a nice way to get started with this episode since there'll be such a broad range of, I guess just in terms of listeners knowledge on this topic, should we start with deconstructing the word psychedelic?
Micah:
I love it. It's a great place to start. So, you know, I feel like this. There's been like this whole sort of second realm psychedelic renaissance that we're experiencing now. Like, some listeners might be younger than me, and even I wasn't alive to be participating in the first one, but I know that it happened. Think Woodstock, think Timothy Leary. Like, this is not new what's happening now. This is just a movement that began a long time ago and something called the War on Drugs sort of squashed it and put it underground.
Micah:
And I really think that the sort of collective global trauma of COVID caused and pressurized a sort of desperation to look to alternative options for healing, that maybe people wouldn't have been open for otherwise, which ultimately is a good thing. But also, in true fashion, of all things capitalist, it became like. It's like, where does something like ancient and wise cross over into a commodity, a protocol, a trend, a bypass? Right. And so this is a roundabout way of getting to your core question, which is why I like to actually talk to people about deconstructing the word psychedelic in and of itself, to move away from thinking about psychedelic as meaning or being limited to the application of psychedelic medicines. Rather, I think that what we need to endeavor to do is think about psychedelic, the word, as a way to qualify a certain type of experience. So then, what type of experience are we referring to? One that alters our sense of self, our sense of identity, our sense of time and space, our sense of other and otherness outside and inside ourselves. And so there's a myriad of things that can actually catalyze that happening. Let me give some examples.
Micah:
Travel to foreign countries. Being in a culture that isn't your own does all of those things. Giving birth to a child does all of those things. Being pregnant does all of those things. Death does all of those things. So I really think that in our cultural sort of overzealousness right now, to consume really powerful medicines, and I think non, not necessarily discerningly enough, we need to return to this notion of understanding that we can have wildly altering states of consciousness come to us through other means, and that that might actually be a necessary prerequisite to working with big plant spirits. I have a couple others just to name that might even feel or be more accessible to people. Because if listeners are like, well, I'm not planning to go to a foreign country, or I'm not planning to have a baby anytime soon, I hope no one dies.
Micah:
I mean, I think riding a horse can be psychedelic. Yeah, like being in touch with nature. It can really open up these sort of channels that I, I think are more connected to what I consider our primary consciousness, our sort of primal sense state of being that's more like a child's mind as opposed to the over intellectualizing that most of us adults do way too much. So yeah, that's a bit of how I think about deconstructing the word. Just taking it out of this one box and thinking about, well, what are we actually talking about when we, when we refer to something as psychedelic.
Freya Graf:
Yeah, not child. That you can experience on psychedelics. That really just lets you zone in on the exquisite beauty of, you know, something tiny in nature or feel this sort of sense of connection and maybe euphoria around the connection with nature. You can get that from other things and a couple of other ideas that I had as you were speaking. You know, breath work can be really powerful.
Micah:
Yes.
Freya Graf:
Yoga, meditation, dance. Honestly, totally. When I'm in flow with dance it is. Yeah, it's off its tits.
Micah:
Sex. Sex is another one.
Freya Graf:
Yeah. Okay, well, I'm glad we started there because that's such a nice. I also think that, you know, when people hear the word psychedelic or you know, even magic mushrooms or whatever, they, they also, thanks to the war on drugs, they think drug. And they might think a drug is a drug is a drug and they're all kind of created equal and they're all bad or they're all dangerous or they're all risky or you know, not okay or not good or you know, we have, we're really in this hangover from the war on drugs and I'm so glad that there's this sort of second wave, this renaissance, as you called it, happening. And the research is finally, after being stalled for so long, starting to like really catch up. And that adds legitimacy when, you know, I'm having conversations with kind of the naysayers and the people that still are very much in that sort of rigid thinking around it, as I used to be growing up with, you know, just say no as this big no drug campaign that we had in Australia at least. And so I'm curious, like what are some of the things that now the research is showing? And also we'll get to the, we'll get to the, the indigenous uses. But maybe let's start especially for the skeptics talking about like the potential for trauma healing, you know, just healing and self actualization in general that these medicines hold and how this, this new wave of curiosity and research about it is supporting all of these benefits.
Micah:
Yes. So, so there's so many things I want to say. First of all, I want to just acknowledge that my brain is better with metaphors than it is with numbers. But there is no limitation to statistical information. And one great resource that I might point listeners to just as, like, a starting point to, like, if for folks whose mind is more tilted towards statistics, there's an organization called maps, the Multidisciplinary association for Psychedelic Studies. You can go to maps.org, you can find a wealth of information there that's statistical in nature. So then I can skip past quoting specific stats and just know you can go there. But here's what I'll say without giving specific numbers, because I don't want to miss quotes numbers.
Micah:
But when research started coming out and. And this really found me in 2016, I had. I mean, I. I nearly died in childbirth with my first son. He almost died. We lost a vanishing twin. It was just like a really epic experience. Beautiful and dramatic and all of the above.
Micah:
And I found myself in this sort of, like, I don't know, familiar, but different moment of crisis. And for whatever reason, the thing that kept finding me, you know, and I'd be up, like, late nights with this tiny little preemie newborn trying to breastfeed him. These, like, things kept popping up in my feed about clinical trial research through this organization, maps. What really resonated was the way that they talked about how survivors of ptsd. So for listeners, to be clear, Post Traumatic Stress Disorder and cptsd. Complex Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, particularly. I want to clarify this differentiation. I'll make any assumption because it's important here.
Micah:
So PTSD is like following a specific event or series of events. Many people fall into the CPTSD category, which means the com. It's complex trauma. There is no necessarily honeymoon period in which things were okay. It means that all their nervous system has ever known is trauma, chaos, disorder, fear. Okay, so these are the camps that they're researching and sort of doing clinical trials. Previously, people with these kind of clinical diagnoses almost fell into, like. I want to say, like a wasteland of sorts of like, well, we'll give you SSRIs, because it's what we've got, and it'll help probably a little, at least for a time, and then it might just tank out.
Micah:
And so, so many people were lost in this sort of feels like a wasteland of sorts where things were better, but also not really because kind of at all numb. And I say this with no judgment because I spent probably 20 years of my life like on SSRIs directed by physicians to overcome my own CPTSD. But living the et al, I just went through a near death experience. And somehow I feel this combination of extreme hypervigilance on the one hand and totally numb on the other. Something isn't right here, huh? Now there's all of this scientific research emerging that says that this. This formerly reduced to you're. You just. That's too bad for you.
Micah:
You can't get better. Is having incredible results, like life changing results. So. And it just kept coming into my field, so much so that it was like, okay, this is clearly. I mean, to me, it felt like a sign from the universe to explore, which also was not something I took lightly because, you know, I was raised evangelical. So, you know, the war on drugs was very real over there. And this is not at all how I expected to enter the journey of motherhood doing drugs. However, I had this new sense of urgency and cause to get to the root of whatever was ailing me, for which all of these other myriad things I'd done and tried had helped but not gotten to the root.
Micah:
So a couple more things I'll say about MAPS research. I mean, they're expanding their scope more and more, but specifically, the research that I was looking at that time was around the use of MDMA for PTSD and cptsd. Often people talk about their research with veterans. So that's more of a PTSD situation. But what is less discussed, and I love to bring it out and talk about it, is that the second category of people where they saw the most dramatic positive shifts and transformation were survivors of sexual violence, abuse and assault, which I think is so important to name because both reflect a kind of war, one waged in the body, one waged in the world. So, yeah, there is so much promise here. But I think also part of the challenge of where we stand now is that we did what humans do. We got really excited about all that promise, including me, and sang all the praises of what's possible.
Micah:
And it actually isn't like a magic cure. It still, as it turns out, requires a tremendous amount of work and much longer than people think. And so then the myth starts. This Shangri La story starts to feel less Shangri La and more like, oh, but you mean it's not gone? The trauma isn't gone? No. But your relationship to it now can change.
Freya Graf:
Yeah. Wow. So you work with clients doing psychedelic assisted therapy.
Micah:
So I've now trained and studied to work with multiple different medicines, MDMA being one of them. Ketamine being one of them. Psilocybin and cannabis, those are the medicines that each. I, I philosophically believe that to work with a medicine, we sh. We want to be called to that medicine. Like, like our spirit is saying, come over here. There's something here for me. And those were the medicines that I received, like some sort of sense of spiritual call to work with.
Micah:
And so that's where my, My training and study, as well as my. My own personal healing has been. So I can't speak about the ones that I don't. I haven't had that call to or to work with. But yes, those are. And the. It's interesting because I think all of these medicines affect coming to an altered state of consciousness. They create neurogenesis in the brain.
Micah:
They're all sort of doing similar things, but in very different ways. And so I have lots of conversations with people who I work with around how do we discern what medicine might be best? Because sometimes people just feel a general call, like, I know I need to do something like this, but I don't even know what it is I'm called to. So you asked if I work with people in this capacity. Yes, but primarily my focus these days is education, because I think there's not enough solid education out there for people to be able to make informed, conscious consent. How do you say yes to something that you only have, like a mythical rendering of what it is or could be.
Freya Graf:
Yeah. And also when there's all of these kind of preconceived notions and I suppose a bit of an energy or certain connotations attached to these medicines because of how society has sort of seen them. And obviously set and setting is really important going into this experience. So if someone has even like a little bit of, you know, hesitation or fear or, you know, doubt around that medicine, that could also impact their experience a little bit, right?
Micah:
Absolutely, absolutely. And, you know, I think that the. One of the things that I'm quite passionate about as a practitioner and someone working in this field is just. Just really calling out that. I think the. The relational space between whoever is facilitating and the person who is working on their healing is as much of the catalyst for healing as is the medicine itself. Like, if one way I might describe it is the medicine is the elixir, the relationship is where the repair happens. So that you use reference, this idea of set and setting, it's critical.
Micah:
And if a person is, to me, if they're afraid, maybe we're not ready yet. So I'm just a big Proponent of preparation before we do any work with medicine and integration after. So if we think of like whatever medicinal experience we have as like this sacred sort of ceremonial space in the middle, then the preparation and the integration are the pillars that sort of hold that sacred thing together.
Freya Graf:
Yeah, beautiful. Yeah. And I'm going to sort of get into something related to that around, you know, just the complete lack of scaffolding when we go and try to experiment with these things without any protocol or whatever. But I guess before that, I'd love to cover off a little bit about indigenous use. Like, I'm really curious about the wisdom that we can glean from how these medicines were used and are used and are treated by those who originally had them as part of their apothecary kit long before modern society came in with like, doctors and pharmaceuticals and scientific studies and the war on drugs. So how have psychedelics or plant medicines been used traditionally in indigenous communities? Was it for healing? Was it for fun and play? Was it part of a rite of passage or coming of age ceremony? Like, I'm really into chatting about how these have been ritualized and used in ceremony for thousands of years, you know?
Micah:
Yeah, I love this question. And you mentioned Mama de la Maiko, who. I also respect her work greatly. And I. Something that I've heard her say before is there's no psychedelic renaissance without the indigenous people. And I think that that's such a. You know, I just. Yes, amen to that.
Micah:
Because we forget with all of our modern protocols and our clinical methods, you know, they. I mean, I feel like I have one foot in one world and one foot in the other, and sometimes I'm doing the splits and that's nice and sometimes it's uncomfortable. But I guess what I really want to say in response to this lovely question is that, you know, I don't think what. Regardless of however much clinical study I'd done before I moved to Mexico, I don't think I had the same sort of like, roots under me around working with the medicine. What do I mean by that? It's just so metaphorical. But it's like. Because the work with the medicine is not like a thing that people do in indigenous contexts on top of life. It's like growing up from the roots, like the mycelial network itself.
Micah:
And so it's like threaded into the fabric of life. So it's ritual, it's ceremony, it moves and flows. I mean, many of the things you said are right on point, like with the cycles of the earth. And, you know, I Think in different indigenous peoples will work with medicines in different ways. Everybody has their own traditions and rituals. But like, one, one of the things that I remember early on in my time in moving to Mexico, one of the conunderas that I met and was, you know, like, really began studying and working with her and trying to explain to her, you know, my, my, like, maps, model of, like, you do this and then you wait six weeks and then you do this. And she was like, I'm so baffled by this. Like, every instead of six weeks.
Micah:
Doesn't everybody forget everything if they just go back to their modern life and their busy world? And I was like, oh, yes, this is what's happening. So I think part of it is to say, again, deconstructing that word psychedelic. Like, what if. What if it's about how we live? What if we stop living for a ceremony and we start to sort of imagine that life is the ceremony? Add ritual, add practice, add reference, reverence, reciprocity. Like, then I think nature gives us a cadence that is like, more organic and clear about when we go into ceremony in a deeper way. Does that make sense?
Freya Graf:
Yeah. That was stunning. Yeah.
Micah:
Wow.
Freya Graf:
Wow. And also harder than ever before to approach modern hustle, bustle life and, you know, for most of us, utter survival mode with that ritual, with that reverence. You know, it's really, really tricky not to get caught up in the stresses that. And, you know, the pressure that we're under and to try to bring that reverence and ceremony and intention in while we also have to play by the rules of the sort of systems that, I mean, like you said, you're doing the splits. Like there's one in that world that's magic and then there's another foot in this world that feels, quite frankly quite, you know, poisonous to be in. Toxic. Yeah, yeah. And.
Freya Graf:
Oh, yeah. And actually, it's just a personal anecdote that I just remembered then, which I probably wasn't going to tell, but speaking of doing these medicines without a whole lot of, you know, scaffolding or ceremony, years ago, my friends and I used to love musicals. So we would book some tickets to, like, a big, you know, full production musical with all the choreography and the costumes and the live orchestra and magic, right? And we would either smoke some weed or have some mushrooms, but these. And it was great. But these, these performances happened in the CBD in the city. And I remember walking out of there with mushrooms still in my system and being in this big concrete jungle of, like, bleak gray. It was kind of a yucky Melbourne day and I was sick to my stomach. I was just walking around, seeing everyone looking really depressed and isolated in their suits, kind of not making eye contact, just going about their business in the city.
Freya Graf:
And I was, like, horrified because you just see things different lens, you know, and that was quite an unpleasant experience. I was really shook. Yeah, yeah. So I'm curious about some of the. I guess, you know, you said, like, sure, it's pretty incredible, the potential and the benefits and the results we're seeing. And also, it's not a magic bullet and there's ways to approach it that will greatly influence. Influence the experience. So pitfalls, risks.
Freya Graf:
Let's chat a little bit about that. A couple that spring to mind is just this real lack of intention and protocol due to the absence of, in our modern society of cultural traditions, practices, indigenous wisdom. Total absence of, like, you know, this, like, village model where it's part of life, it's woven into the whole community. You're educated on it, it's role modelled, you know about it from a young age. Like, we don't fucking have that. It's literally this weird toxic rite of passage, which I don't even like to call it that, but that's kind of all we have in Australia at least, of like getting to an age where you start experimenting with drugs and alcohol and there's just binge culture and this more is more and let's just get up. And it's. What I've like witnessed is it's so much more about escapism and numbing ourselves or just trying to feel something and also taking like stacks of.
Freya Graf:
You know, some people will be drinking and then also doing some mushrooms as a party drug and then also some mdma and then also. And it's just like wild, you know, so that is kind of a risk because there's a lack of scaffolding, a lack of education, a lack of process. And it's not really. It's so underground that, you know, we're doing it in the shadows without any support or elder eldership.
Micah:
Eldership, yes.
Freya Graf:
Which, you know, like something that I love about Charlie Winninger. I don't know if you've heard of him, but his book Listening to Ecstasy is like part autobiography because he grew up through, you know, he's in his 70s now. He grew up through the whole war on Drugs. He's a psycho therapist. He was using MDMA as, you know, when it was called Empathy, because it was a couple's therapy drug. And then, you know, he sort of does a Lot of stuff with maps. And him and his wife have been taking MDMA and psychedelics together for, you know, 25, 30 years. Really gorgeous.
Freya Graf:
And his book is like part sort of like beautifully written, but, you know, talking about his journey throughout his life. And then also it's very practical, perfectly laid out advice around protocols and how to approach doing this in an intentional and safe way. And so that provides a bit of a foundation for people that want to do it, but don't want to take on the risks of just kind of, you know, experimenting willy nilly. Anyway, big rant, you know, what are some other pitfalls or potential risks? And, you know, that could also include something that I think about which, you know, it's like, are we culturally appropriating these medicines? And, you know, like, what are the risks of that?
Freya Graf:
Hey, baby babes. Sorry to interrupt. I just had to pop my head into the lounge here and mention another virtual lounge that I'd love you to get around. It's the Labia Lounge Facebook group that I've created for listeners of the potty to mingle in. There you'll find extra bits and bobs, like freebies behind the scenes or discounts for offerings from guests who have been interviewed on the podcast. They'll also be hopefully inspiring, thought provoking conversations and support from a community of labial legends like yourself. My vision for this is that it becomes a really supportive, educational and hilarious resource for you to have more access to me and a safe space to ask questions you can't ask anywhere else. So head over to the links in the show notes or look up the Labia Lounge group in Facebook and I'll see you in there.
Freya Graf:
And now back to the episode.
Micah:
Yeah, where to begin. So, yes, I do, I do think we are. And I don't even know necessarily know that there's like a consciousness of that, certainly for many, but for others, I think it's like there's so much giddy up energy and excitement about this and learning and downloading and. And then it's like, oh, wait, I lost you. You're on a spiritual bypass track.
Freya Graf:
Yeah.
Micah:
You know, and I don't even mean it like, as a judgment. It's like it's just watch it happen. And there we go again. And that's where it's like, yeah, I do think it's a kind of appropriation and I think that that's a real risk. Like we have to be cognizant of commodifying the sacred. Really? Are we going to do that? Because that's probably not going to work out so well. So, you know, the. It's.
Micah:
It's great. I mean, again, back to my splits metaphor. I love having protocols. I love having a roadmap and a structure and an arc of care and sort of knowing these things. And I focus a lot on education and harm reduction. And a critical part of that conversation to me is, what does it mean to consciously consent to something? And can you even do that when you don't really know what it is you're saying yes to? So before you just come have a ceremony with me, we need to do a lot of work in which we really orient you to the deconstruction of yourself concept that's about to go down to make sure you really want to do it, because once you open Pandora's box, you just can't put the lid back on. So. And I don't think people understand this really.
Micah:
And I think that we also. One of the other cultural ailments of now is that we run urgency all the time. There's, like, urgency. And if I've identified an answer, then I'm urgently gonna do it right now, as fast as I can. And I always tell people, like, urgency is a trauma response. And so for me, as a practitioner or as a teacher or an elder, to people who come to me for guidance about how to hold space, like, humbly, from what I've learned from the elders who've held space and taught me is that we need to slow it down. Like that urgency, trauma response is. It's like, okay, let me give you an analogy.
Micah:
And I've shared this one before, but it doesn't matter. I think it's useful. It's like, okay, sometimes if we have an accident and we're hurt, we need to go to the er because medical intervention, emergency care is required. However, the ER is its own traumatizing experience because it's the er, if we're not really in need of going to the er, and we can, like. We can, like, clean what happened. We can, like, bandage it up. We can, like, work at understanding. We can go into the wellness clinic and receive a much more, like, grounded body of care.
Micah:
This is how I think psychologically, people need to enter into psychedelics through that door, not the other one. Because when they're already in, like, a triage, I mean, there are some people who do this work, like. And, you know, again, I don't want to speak about things I don't do. Like, people who use ibogaine, which is a medicine I Only know a little bit about to treat people who are actively could die from addiction. They're in an acute er state and I think they go in and they do good work over there. So I'm not trying to speak in any sort of binaries that you can't do this. It always has to be that. But generally speaking I think when we can enter in from an informed conscious consent place, not like I'm about to bleed out and die.
Micah:
We have cultivated a village of care. We have re established connection to nature. So we're not in nature deficit disorder. And we're through all of those things coming out of like the urgency then we have much better odds for lasting outcome.
Freya Graf:
Love that, love that. It's just a bit of an antidote to. Yeah to. I hate this hustle culture. It's so bad for our nervous systems. And it's, you know, I work with people around sexuality, intimacy, pleasure, sexual trauma. And I often sort of say like how you live life is how you have sex. How you show up in life and approach it is how you show up and approach being in the bedroom.
Freya Graf:
And if you're constantly rushing, type A busy, busy, stressed, of course you can't orgasm, of course you can't relax and switch off your brain in the bedroom.
Micah:
You know, being your body.
Freya Graf:
Yeah it's just constantly disconnecting us from our bodies and from our, our sort of power and we're just untethered, you know, flailing around, just treading water so often in life. And so a lot of the things that I will give people as home play practices before we even get to any, you know, anything to do with genitals or technique or whatever is just like cool. How can you have micro moments to like, I guess, you know, metaphorically or literally stop and smell the roses. How can you find little, little, little bits of pleasure in the minutiae of your day and the simple things and like actually stop and pause or tap into your body or your senses in a non sexual way more frequently throughout the day so that you're like regulating your nervous system and you're actually starting to pay attention. You know, I get more interoception online so that you practice that skill, you exercise that muscle and you can then utilize that in the bedroom. More restrictions readily. But that's a bit of a side tangent. Something on the, the risks or pitfalls thing.
Freya Graf:
I wanted to ask you because I kind of want to make my mum listen to this. We've had a lot of conversations about mushrooms and she's actually Credit to her. She's way more open minded these days than I ever expected. And, and when we had this conversation, she seemed more and more open to, you know, the idea of psychedelics and mushrooms. But she had an experience and I've heard a few people who know someone who've had this experience where her best friend's sister had like a bit of a psychotic break because she had mushrooms when they were young, when there are teenagers and it was very, very scary for all of them and it sort of put her off anything for the rest of her life basically. And she's always had this fear and you know, put, put those drugs in a certain category because of that. Is this like, is this common? Is this a risk? Is it because of the way some people's brains operate that they don't respond well and they react badly to psychedelics? Are there things we can do to kind of safeguard against that? I'd love to just talk a little bit about that because I think that's a big worry for a lot of people and a lot of people that are very against or not open to exploring this stuff, which is fair and fine. It's because they don't like the idea of losing control and it's because they're afraid that they're going to break their brain and they're not going to come back from it.
Micah:
Yeah. Oh, it's all valid. And this is why I continue to do splits, because I do like the science and I think it's important. I think that one of the most sort of emerging and critical areas to continue to expand of research now for psychedelic work is how do we use these tools in working with neurodivergent brain compositions. And let me just caveat that by saying I actually think that neurotypical is the anomaly and that we're all neurodivergent just along a continuum with different levels of expression. I mean, I think that anyone who is like artistic, it's a kind of neurodivergence, it's a different bend or twist in the neural pathways in the brain. So that's one piece of the puzzle is that I think we don't yet know enough about how these medicines interface with a brain that's actually got like a architecture that's different. Right.
Micah:
So, you know, if we're talking purely about trauma and how trauma impacts the structural kind of makeup of the brain, it creates a lot of rigidity in the neural pathways so they become almost like brittle bones. Like they're like rigid and taut. And so then when we, we drop in this infusion of psychedelic medicine, it's like neurogenetic activity. So the rigidity suddenly is now got like, oh, plasticity, elasticity. Great, that's good. We can work with that. Now that's trauma. Right.
Micah:
If we have a brain that is really expressed in some neurodivergent way, let's not even give it a label, let's just say it's quite expressed. It's not so much that the brain is like got this rigidity of neural pathways. Rather we might see that it's got all kinds of like forks and bends and twists and turns and then we add in that same. Yes, I think damage can happen. I don't mean that to be disparaging or discouraging to people who identify as neurodivergent and are curious about these sorts of experiences. I mean it as a like loving, caring, cautionary. Proceed with caution. We're still learning here.
Micah:
Right. And certainly working with a practitioner that has some knowledge base and understanding training around that is going to make a big difference. I think some medicines work better in those cases than others. And there was something else that I wanted to say about that, but now the specificity of that detail has, is eluding me. But it's such an important, important question that you're asking, I guess the other thing. So you asked about the brain. Oh, this is what it was. Thank you.
Micah:
I knew I could make my way back to it. Thank you for your patience. Is that when we're very young and our prefrontal cortex is still developing, we have naturally occurring neurogenetic activity. When our prefrontal cortex stops developing, which a lot of people don't know, is not until we're like 26 or 27. That's when our naturally occurring neurogenetic activity starts to decline. And so then psychedelics are really like. I think of them in some ways as like, I don't know, pro aging. Like meaning that we're keeping our minds awake and elastic plastic even as that neurogenetic activity would otherwise, otherwise be declining.
Micah:
But think about it. If you already have all that activity naturally occurring because you're only 13 or 14, and then you give like a heroic dose of something. Like it might just be that the volume of material was too high. Like, like imagine an electric charge that's just too much.
Freya Graf:
Yeah, yeah.
Micah:
So these are things I think people really need to think about too. Especially, especially like consider age in how you think about how effective this treatment will be, whether younger or older or somewhere in the middle and what medicines might be more tolerated and positive for your system. Like these are all great discussions to have in the name of safety and harm reduction.
Freya Graf:
Yeah, beautiful. So well said and I love that you touched on that because I think a lot of people are starting to explore these medicines at a pretty young age. And like we mentioned the set and setting just for those that don't know it's mindset and the setting that you're actually in your environment, they, those two things influence your experience a lot with psychedelics. And so, you know, she might have been at a party, drinking around all these crazy social dynamics, like not a whole, not a very calm or safe environment to try that for the first time. And you know, it could spiral if she starts panicking because all of a sudden there's all this too much going on flooding her brain, her experiences feeling a bit out of control and then that can be a slippery slope. So I think, you know, really knowing that you've taken care of your mindset, you're in a pretty good place, a stable place in that moment and the setting that you're in can influence things greatly. Before we get into, I want to cover off a little bit of like more harm reduction training stand and stuff like that, but let's do this segment. Get pregnant and die.
Freya Graf:
Don't have sex because you will get pregnant and don't have sex in the missionary position. Don't have, don't have sex standing up. Just don't do it, promise. Do you have an anecdote from your sex education? Doesn't even have to be in school, but just, you know, something around that when you were younger.
Micah:
Oh my God. Well, when you were explaining this to me earlier, I thought to myself, my God, this is like so relevant, I feel like to my own healing journey and experience. Like I didn't have any sex education because it was the, it was the, shh, don't talk about it because that's bad, you know. And so in the absence, what I've come to believe, and a lot of this is informed through my own psychedelic healing and journey, is that. But it's the absence of the dialogue when things in that space go bad, go wrong. Rather, in fact, I think that sex education now my belief is like, we talk about it early, we talk about it often, we talk about it in age appropriate ways and that it's an evolving dialogue from the time our kids are pretty little. You know, like I think of it with my small children in age appropriate ways. I'm like trying to Orient them to their blossoming sexuality.
Micah:
What a sacred thing that was lost in my childhood because it was all just sort of under the vault.
Freya Graf:
Yeah.
Micah:
And because it was under the vault, it led to so much sexual abuse because everybody felt shame about their sexuality. Right. So, you know, I mean, God, I could go, I could give you so many stories. I remember being in. And I think I even talk about this in the book. I'm not sure, but there, there. I remember being in a Sunday school class and the. The teacher sort of telling the story of Adam and Eve in the garden.
Micah:
And, you know, if you don't know the story, Eve eats the apple. She's tempted by the serpent. She's curious. So the moral of the story is that as it was presented to me by this Sunday school teacher, is that, you know, Eve was naughty, her curiosity was bad, and because of that, she had to pay a price in her life. And what was the price? The price is that she had to bleed every month and that her childbirth would be hard and painful.
Freya Graf:
Oh, my God. I didn't know that bit of the story.
Micah:
Well, that is how it was presented to me. I mean, I don't know if that is actually how healthy people of faith go around telling the story. So I don't want to misrepresent it altogether, but that is how I was told the story. So. But then when I think about it, and so it was so relevant. My psychedelic healing journey began because I almost died in childbirth.
Freya Graf:
Yeah. Wow.
Micah:
So. And epigenetically and genetically and psychologically and lineage wise, all of this stuff was so, like, woven into the fabric of me. It was a very dark tale of what sexuality was. And sexuality's origin is curiosity and play.
Freya Graf:
Yeah.
Micah:
So then you take those things away from a child. What. What remains?
Freya Graf:
God, it's heartbreaking.
Micah:
Right. But it's beautiful to think of what's possible when you can heal these things.
Freya Graf:
Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Thank you. That was a really perfect get pregnant and die story. And I'm so, like, warmed to hear about how you're going about doing it with your kids now and just breaking that cycle of shame and encouraging that curiosity and normalizing, Speaking about it regularly from a young age. Like, that's beautiful.
Freya Graf:
And that's. That's the best. I mean, I've done a couple of episodes on shameless parenting and how to talk to your kids about sex and all of this stuff and, you know, different stages of development and age appropriately. But the key is talk about it often from the get go and obviously adapt it for their age, but answer all their questions, meet their curiosity. Like, that's the most powerful way that you can encourage their curiosity and play instead of squashing it and shaming it and wronging it.
Micah:
Totally.
Freya Graf:
Yeah. Okay, so let's talk a little bit about harm reduction in the psychedelic space. We've touched on that a few times. I know it's something you do a lot of work around. What do you feel is important when it comes to this that we haven't mentioned?
Freya Graf:
Excuse this quick interruption. I'm shamelessly seeking reviews and five star ratings for the potty because as I'm sure you've noticed by now, it's pretty fab. And the more people who get to hear it, the more people I can help with it. Reviews and ratings actually do make a big difference to this little independent podcaster. And it's really easy to just quickly show your support by taking that simple act of either leaving five stars for the show on the Spotify, or even better, writing a written review and leaving five stars over on Apple podcasts. Or if you're a real overachiever, you can do them both. That would be mad. If you're writing a review though, just be sure to use G rated words because despite the fact that this is a podcast about sexuality, words like sex can be censored and your review won't make it through the gates.
Freya Graf:
Lame. Anyway, I would personally recommend doing that right now while you remember, just to get on top of it and let me know you're with me on this journey. Thanks, gang. Enjoy the rest of the epi.
Micah:
No, we haven't mentioned. I mean.
Freya Graf:
And feel free to touch on like the. The training standards and stuff. Currently, I don't know much about what.
Micah:
That's a good point because we did. We haven't talked so much about that. So that is a great, great thing that you bring them. I mean, I want to reiterate because I can't. I feel like the cornerstones to me of harm reduction are education and conscious consent. I know I've said that already, but it's like the sort of foundation. We must educate people on what it is that we're walking into. Not because we are trying to control the outcome or quantify it or predict it, but because to go on any quest, you need to be prepared.
Micah:
Otherwise you go on the quest and you could die out there. The stakes are high, you know, like you don't go into the mountains without a backpack and provisions. This is like that. You need to be prepared. And then through that Space of preparation. I think, you know, a good facilitator is always engaging. Conscious consent also is not a one and done. Like here, you signed the form, you said yes to the experience, and I've let you know what the risk might be.
Micah:
Actually, you're talking to them always about, okay, so now that this is coming up, do you still feel aligned, so really understanding that consent? I'm sure you must talk about this in your. There's so many parallels to the work of sexuality and the work of psychedelics because we're going into altered states of consciousness. You know, we're going into the embodiment realm. But it's like continuing to have the conversation about is this still feeling like a yes? Okay, and what if we don't even know? I don't know. What if the answer is I don't know, then what do we do? Well, we better slow down. Yeah, right. One of my favorite quotes of all time, Audre Lorde, said, we've been conditioned to fear the yes inside ourselves. And I think about that so often, at least in my own sort of sexual healing work through psychedelic space and medicines is like that.
Micah:
Was it the conditioning to fear the yes? But part of fearing the yes was also because I had no idea that I had the agency to say no, to learn to say no in order to embrace what was my yes, what did I want? So all of these things are so commingled and close together. So I think that's something else I want to say that Just understand when I say conscious consent, it's. It's like an ongoing dialogue.
Freya Graf:
Yeah.
Micah:
It's not a single conversation that you have where you cover the risk and then you cross that off your process. No, not really. It's like sex where you're constantly engaging. So then as for training, I think training is critical because we are going into like the depths of someone's most vulnerable spaces and places, their vaulted memories, their biggest physical and metaphysical boo boos, some of which they haven't. They vaulted to themselves and are going to reemerge. Like almost as if it's for the first time, even though it was there all along. You know, I think to be able to hold that space and stay grounded in it, one must have an extensive amount of training. Now, I don't think that there's one body of training that is the right one.
Micah:
Like you need this degree, you need this certification. This is where I think it's like the science and the art, like there's certain things you need to know that are like you need to know about the brain and, like, you need to know the scientific things. But then the art of it is like, healers and artists, I think, are like, sort of the same. Like, what is someone's art? What is their style as a healer? You know, So I think of. I mean, and part of this is informed by my lineage. But when I think of myself, I mean, technically, I guess I have the title of therapist by job, by certifications and trainings, but I really feel more resonant with the title of midwife. While I'm not delivering babies, I am delivering a person's, like, inner child out of the past pain and trauma into the present possibility. And it certainly is a labor.
Micah:
And so that's. That's me. That's like my sort of. This is where Micah landed in this. And my path to getting there was lots of study and training. And the other thing I would say is, you know, if you lean more clinical, they refer to it as supervision. If you lean more indigenous. You used the word before.
Micah:
And I love it when people do eldership. Like, I am as good at what I do as a reflection of the. The people who hold space for me. I don't do this work without elders. I have a village, and I like it. Feel so daily humbled and grateful for them. That is so important for people thinking about holding these kinds of spaces.
Freya Graf:
Yeah. Oh, my God, I could listen to you all day, honestly. Cool. And I guess this leads this sort of segues perfectly into my next question, which is around, like, how psychedelics can assist with the process of matriarchal rising that we're starting to, you know, see more of. And. And like, perhaps now is, like, a good time to discuss how, like, women and the Earth, you sort of talk about them sharing one corporeality. And I would love to unpack that for us, like, especially for people that haven't really heard those terms or for people who might think, oh, that sounds. Woo woo.
Freya Graf:
Yeah, like, I'd love to hear your take on that, because I know you can kind of wax lyrical on. On. On these. These concepts. And I love to hear it. And I think it's an important part of the conversation, especially since, you know, some of these medicines, like mushrooms, have literally come from the earth. And different plant medicines have a very feminine energy or nature about them. And, you know, obviously you came to it through the process of birth and this rite of passage that.
Freya Graf:
Where there was this intersection of birth and death. And. Yeah, just what do you want to say on that?
Micah:
God, so many Things. Let me try to not wax overly lyrical and not be too long winded, but I love this question. I mean, I think that. I mean, again, I want to give a lot of, like, credit to my indigenous elders for helping me to see. See this, like, the same woman I was speaking about earlier. One of the things she said to me that really altered my orientation to myself and my life was she said, you're. You're. One of your biggest challenges is that you don't understand that your.
Micah:
Your. Your secure attachment is not your. It's not about the bio moment. It's about understanding the earth as your mother. And when you understand that, then you. Your umbilical cord goes straight to source. So I think that really had such a deep impact on me because it helped me to start to look at all these things. Like, I mean, there's so many of them.
Micah:
Like, we share the cycles, like the moon cycles. We women share the cycles. We have all of. We experience. So the corporeal. That word is body. And reality is the reality that's happening. If you look at what a woman's body goes through and you look at the earth body, we share stories, we share phases, we share cycles.
Micah:
We share, tragically, stories of taking, violating, an absence of reciprocity. So I think a lot of this, you know, there's. There's a. I would. I guess the other thing I really want to say is, like, you know, there's all the smash, the. The patriarchy. And I mean, I grew up in a misogynistic culture, so I got that inside me for sure. But I think as I, you know, move closer to crone than maiden and even, like, advanced in mother, I feel more in touch with this idea of, like, what if we didn't smash anything? But we tried to remember that the feminine and the masculine are vibrational forces that order the world, the universe.
Micah:
And when they're both tuned to the right frequency, everything's okay. Right. So I think part of where the kind of critique of patriarchy comes in is that whether it was malicious, intended, or just an unfortunate outcome of where we've landed, women have become disconnected from their bodies. We see this in modern obstetrics and how women have moved from midwifery to, like, scheduling C sections. And I am not saying this with any sort of judgment, but more like, can we be curious about that? And, you know, in many indigenous communities, women were seen as the spiritual, as the oracle. Why? Because the spirit can't. Comes through the woman, meaning the body, the babies, they come through the Woman, the man contributes the seed. I mean, it's beautifully balanced, and it doesn't need to be, like, a competitive fight for equality.
Micah:
Like, I'm not even convinced that men and women are equal. I think we are deserving of equal freedom, rights, respect. Yes, of course. But our design, I think, was intentionally not made to be equal. We have different strengths, we have different deficits. And when we are in those, like, attuned vibrational frequencies, there's like a symbiotic completion. So that's sort of what I think about the matriarchal rising is that it's. It's not just about the matriarchal rising.
Micah:
It's about the masculine. It's about both. It's about attunement and coming into balance.
Freya Graf:
Yeah, I love what you said about. Yeah, I mean, these parallels that can be drawn with the Earth, Mother Nature and, like, women's sort of cyclical bodies, how we're in tune with the, you know, the moon cycles and our periods and how there's been a lot of, I guess, like, raping and pillaging of the Earth and also of women. And this very. I guess we live in this very, like, extractive kind of society where it's like, let's see what we can extract from the Earth and, you know, even, like. Yeah, what we can take. And. And I see this a lot in, like, you know, very, like, heteronormative style sex. It's like, very extractive.
Freya Graf:
Like, what can we take from the woman's body? And that's why I love teaching about the. The wheel of consent and how there's taking and love the wheel of consent. Yeah, yeah. So. And yeah, and also, like, the. The thing you said about midwifery, I just wanted to put in there. I made a little note like, oh, there's an episode I did with Nathan, Dr. Nathan Riley, who is just such a massive advocate for midwives.
Freya Graf:
And we did a big episode on obstetrics on, you know, the current state of, like, birthing in modern medicine and in the hospital system and stuff. And that's a really powerful episode because he's come from a very, like, rigid Western medicine background as a doctor and a surgeon in obstetrics. But he's just so phenomenal at talking about how we can do things in. In alignment with. With how our body is actually supposed to function. He's a huge advocate for midwives and for there being women supporting women in birth like it used to be. Anyway, last. Last little, little question before we do the segment tmi and then we wrap up.
Freya Graf:
What do you see happening in terms of legislation, you know, and even like, patenting, etc, now that psychedelics are gaining, like, recognition. I know. I'm so sorry. I see you're covering your face. It's a huge question. Someone asked me this and I was like, if. I know, I don't even want to think about it. It scares and depresses me.
Freya Graf:
But I feel like there's a potential for, like, big Pharma to like that, you know, if they're not making money from it. Because I literally went out and like, picked magic mushrooms from nature the other day. How is this going to be regulated or, like, monopolized on so that, you know, because it's like, we want it to be distributed and delivered for healing and have the benefits, but also like, holy shit. Like, it's all.
Micah:
I know.
Freya Graf:
The messy.
Micah:
Yes, it. I did cover because I don't even know where to begin. I mean, I don't know. Like, the whole thing makes me feel kind of uncomfortable and cringy. Like the hubris of anyone thinking that they could replicate nature and. And yet we. We've shown time and time again that we can. But I'm yet to be convinced that it is.
Micah:
It is the same. And I'm also really concerned about what gets lost in translation when we try. And this sort of, like, perpetuation of, like, man's reason as being sort of loftier than the earth's might. I just think, yes, like, the capitalistic drive is so strong. Like, what if we learn to live not on the land and take from the land and make from the land, but to be with it? What if we considered the good old, you know, indigenous value of reciprocity and right relationship, that abundance is measured not by how much I have, but how much I'm willing to give. So I do get really concerned and have feelings in my body when people. Not your question is fine. It's a good question.
Micah:
It's important, Important we talk about this. But when people start coming to me saying, oh, I'm gonna patent this thing, you know, and it. I'm like, oh, God, you know, I mean, another little kernel of indigenous wisdom that was shared with me years ago was that the medicine that, when we're talking in this case, I'm talking about psilocybin specifically holds. Holds the spirit of the land in which it grew and the hands that held it while it. While it grew. And then I think about, how does that translate to, like, a chemist's lap? I mean, I suppose if, if it's done with love and care. Okay. But I'm not.
Micah:
I'm just not convinced yet. I'm a little skeptical there.
Freya Graf:
Yeah. And understandably so. I can't really see, you know, big Pharma understanding this enough to want to put the intention into the process. You know, it's like it's all just about, how can we make money off this? And oh, where are we going to lose money? Because all of a sudden people are microdosing for anti instead of antidepressants, and turns out it's just as effective, if not more. But people are getting this for free. So, like, what can we do to, you know, basically try to own this technology and capitalize on it and make money off, you know, and it's. It's really. It's really frightening.
Freya Graf:
I mean, it's a. It's a step forward that it's becoming more recognized as a powerful healing tool in our toolkit and things are becoming decriminalized or legalized. But, like, you know, then to what end? Like, how. Yeah, it's. Anyway, that's a really hectic note to end on, but do you have a TMI story for us?
Micah:
Well, I think this is. I was thinking about when you told me, and I think it connects really well to your how did you describe pregnancy and death piece and your sex education question. All of that is sort of threaded together. So, you know, my TMI story that I would share. So when I came to psychedelic therapy right after this near death experience and this new tiny baby and all this stuff was going on, what I came with is like, I'm sort of lost in hypervigilance and numb, and I still hate my body, even though it just lived through all these things. And am I ever going to be done hating my body, trying to shrink it and control it, which is also a way to desexualize it. Because remember, I was taught that heinous story about Eve. So in one of.
Micah:
No, not one of. In my first session, the first thing that came up was a memory that was like, what? And I remember saying to my therapist at the time, God, I've seen this. This picture like a thousand times was the most innocuous thing. I don't know why it's coming up now. And she's like, it's not. That's why it's coming up now. So what happens if you go into that picture and you see what your body feels? And then I remembered all sorts of things that my body felt that it didn't want to feel because it was. There was sexual trauma going on.
Micah:
However, the TMI that I think is like a positive high note to land on is, I didn't realize because you don't know a thing until you know it, right? So at this time, I'm 36 years old, certainly had sex because I've had a baby, but I didn't know that I'd never had an orgasm because I just thought what I'd been experiencing was that. But after I had therapy because I processed through this memory that had put my whole sexuality on total lockdown. Freeze. My body suddenly, like a wilted flower, was like, oh, oh. And so I remember going to my therapist for my integration and, and being like, I still am vigilant and I'm still numb. And so I think that this didn't work. And I'm really frustrated. And she's like, okay, well, tell me anything else that's happened.
Micah:
I was like, I don't know, like just going through the things like breastfeeding and babies. And I was like, but, but there was this one thing that I noticed that happened and she, she about fell out of her chair because as a therapist, she's like, do you understand what a big deal this is? Like, this is huge. And it's so funny now because I had no idea yet that, that, that was like the essence of me coming back to life.
Freya Graf:
Hey, me again. If you'd like to support the potty and you've already already given it five stars on whatever platform you're listening on, I want to mention that you can buy some really dope merch from the website and get yourself a labia lounge tote tea togs.
Freya Graf:
Yep, you heard that right.
Freya Graf:
I even have labia lounge bathers or a cute fanny pack if that'd blow your hair back.
Freya Graf:
So if fashion isn't your passion though.
Freya Graf:
You can donate to my Buy me a coffee donation page, which is actually called Buy me a soy Chai latte because I'll be the first to admit I'm a bit of a Melbourne cafe tosser like that. And yes, that is my coffee order. You can do a once off donation or an ongoing membership and sponsor me for as little as three fat ones a month. And I also offer one on one coaching and online courses that'll help you level up your sex life and relationship with yourself and others in a really big way.
Freya Graf:
So every bit helps. Cause it ain't cheap to put out.
Freya Graf:
A few sweet podcast into the world every week out of my own pocket. So I will Be undyingly grateful if you support me and my biz financially in any of these ways. And if you like, I'll even give you a mental BJ with my mind from the lounge itself. Saucy. I'll pop the links in the show notes. Thank you later.
Freya Graf:
Wow. So you had your first orgasm after your first psychedelic assisted therapy session.
Micah:
Yeah, I had no idea. I hadn't had one. Wow. And. But I just. I think because I was still so in my cognitive mind. Sex.
Freya Graf:
Yeah.
Micah:
Was like, that's. That's the bad thing that we're not supposed to talk too much about. So I didn't even recognize yet. Emphasis on yet. That that was like the beginning. And again, this. Like, I do think that, you know, I mean that my. The end of my book closes with a poem and I talk about, you know, orgasm as being like the pulse that's at the center of the earth.
Micah:
So whatever that is the vibrational force of creation. It's about sex and pleasure, but it's also about creation itself. Wow.
Freya Graf:
Wow.
Micah:
And that is such a common experience for survivors of sexual trauma that they don't even know. Then they feel so frustrated and ashamed that their body doesn't work. They don't understand violence, why they've tried all the things. And it's be. It's often because the trauma that's keeping that thing locked is buried so deep when you have to touch it. The trauma to be able to, like, retrieve the life force that exists with it.
Freya Graf:
Yes. Beautifully said. Yeah. Amazing. What a note to end on. That's so incredible. And it. And it's.
Micah:
It's.
Freya Graf:
It is. Yeah. Yeah. The fact that we've compartmentalized sexuality and that we see it as so separate and unrelated is such a product of how. Yeah. I guess you know your story with your sex education or lack thereof. No wonder you kind of didn't think that. Think to mention that for a second in that session because it sort of seemed like this separate thing.
Freya Graf:
But then actually, yeah. When you start connecting the dots, it's so interwoven and such a barometer for openness and connection going on in your body and. Wow, that's powerful. That's so cool. I'm really glad you shared that. And it gives a bit of hope as well. I work with a lot of people.
Micah:
I hope so.
Freya Graf:
Trauma and that can't access orgasm or pleasure yet, but it is. It's there. It's just underneath. It's underneath a lot of locked, locked up trauma. So totally. I have loved. I've just adored this conversation. I adore you.
Freya Graf:
I think this is just going to be really potent and really informative and healing for people to hear this conversation. I'm going to put links to your book in the show notes. You're offering $5 off the book and 5% off your courses. So I'll put all the details in the in the Facebook group Labia Lounge and the show notes. And yeah, just really appreciate your time and just being so generous. I know we've gone a little bit over, so sorry.
Micah:
That's all right. I've loved every minute of it. Thank you so much for having me. It's lovely to talk about. It's lovely to have a conversation as an embodied woman about things that were forbidden and to be able to hopefully, through doing that, help others feel permission.
Freya Graf:
To do the same. Yeah. Gorgeous. Amazing.
Micah:
Yeah.
Freya Graf:
Thank you, my dad. Thank you.
Freya Graf:
And that's it. Darling hearts. Thanks for stopping by the Labia Lounge. Your bum groove in the couch will be right where you left it, just waiting for you to sink back in for some more Double L action next time. If you'd be a dear and subscribe, share this episode or leave a review on itunes. Then you can pat yourself on the snatch because because that's a downright act of sex positive feminist activism and you'd be supporting my vision to educate, empower, demystify and destigmatise with this here podcast. I'm also always open to feedback, topic ideas that you'd love to hear, covered questions or guest suggestions. So feel free to get in touch via my website or over on Insta.
Freya Graf:
You can also send me in TMI stories to be shared anonymously on the podcast. My handle is freyagrafthelabielounge. If my account hasn't been deleted for being too sex positive, which is always a possibility with censorship. But just in case the chronic censorship finally does obliterate my social channels, I'd highly recommend going and joining my mailing list and snagging yourself some fun freebies for the trouble at www.freyagraf.com freebies. Anyway, later labial legends. See you next time.