Mental Health, Masculinity, Self Esteem and Rejection with Jackson Tozer

Freya Graf:

This program is brought to you by Pussy Magnets.

Jackson Tozer:

Welcome.

Freya Graf:

Welcome, my lovely lumps, Or should I say lovely labs? I'm so thrilled to have you here in the labia lounge. We're gonna yarn about all things sexuality, womanhood, relationships, intimacy, holistic health, and everything in between. Your legs. Oh. Can't help myself. Anyway, we're gonna have vag loads of real chats with real people about real shit. So buckle up. You're about to receive the sex ed that you never had and have a bloody good laugh while you're at it.

Freya Graf:

Before we dive in, I'd like to respectfully acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land on which I'm recording this, the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin nation. It's an absolute privilege to be living and creating dope podcast content in Naarm and I pay respect to their elders past, present and emerging. Now, if you're all ready, let's flap and do this. Oh my god. Is there such thing as too many vagina jokes in the one intro? Whatever. It's my podcast. I'm leaving it in. Hey gang.

Freya Graf:

Just before we jump into this episode, I wanted to offer you an opportunity to access my new mini course for free before I start charging for it in future. It's for people with vulvas and it's quick to complete. It's all about demystifying the female body and pleasure anatomy and getting some basic fundamentals to understand your body better. It's called Pussy Pleasure Secrets, Your Roadmap to Bedroom Bliss. You can grab it on the freebies page of my website or in the show notes. It's a great little free resource to kind of dip your toe in or act as a bit of a taster for my work. So if you've ever been curious about this sort of thing and you just don't know where to start or you want a really quick, easy, accessible, non threatening way to get the ball rolling and start working on this stuff, this is a great place to start. Hey, my labial ledge bombs, my labial ledge hammers, little ledge of celerinos, How bloody I am.

Freya Graf:

I want to introduce you to my guest today because he's been getting up to some cool shit for the past decade or so, and he's also a friend of mine. Jackson Tozer is a multi award winning actor, writer and director based in Melbourne. Jackson has played a multitude of characters on both Australian and international screens. Beyond his onscreen achievements, Jackson has earned acclaim for his openness in discussing personal struggles as a guest on the Imperfects podcast. His episode resonated widely reaching number three on the Australian Apple charts upon release. And so inspired by this experience, Jackson debuted his first solo live comedy show, Jackson Tozer's Assemble, to a completely sold out run and finished in the top three highest rated shows at the twenty twenty four Melbourne Fringe Festival. Hot damn. In this epi, we cover quite a lot of ground, so I encourage you to stick with it because it's a long run, and we really get into some of the meatier stuff towards the second half.

Freya Graf:

We chat about Jackson's struggles with mental health, grief, drug addiction and handling rejection, both in the film and TV industry as well as in his dating life. We get stuck into some realness when we traverse the vulnerable territory around consent, sexuality, performance anxiety and masculinity. And we unpack what it means to be a healthy man, the importance of asking for help, how to improve emotional literacy, and ways to be a good role model for other men and boys. Mental health and being a role model of healthy masculinity and authenticity is something really close to Jackson's heart and at the center of everything he does, But this hasn't always been the case, so I hope you gather some helpful insights along the way as we talk about his journey to get here. Enjoy.

Jackson Tozer:

Is that right?

Freya Graf:

Okay. Speak?

Jackson Tozer:

Yeah. Yeah. We got it. So when I was a little boy, I was at a school camp and

Freya Graf:

Wait. Are you just launching into a story right now? What? Okay. Welcome. Welcome.

Jackson Tozer:

Hello.

Freya Graf:

So nice to be chatting with you, my dear.

Jackson Tozer:

Mhmm. Happy to be here, Freya. Yeah.

Freya Graf:

We finally did it. Yeah. Look at us go. And it's an in person one, which is super cute. I don't get to do these very often.

Jackson Tozer:

That must be hard having, like, a in-depth conversation with someone via a screen.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. It is a bit of a strange thing, isn't it? I think I still nail it. Like, it doesn't bother me too much. I think I've had a lot of problems.

Jackson Tozer:

Very humbly. You do nail it. You do. You do.

Freya Graf:

But we're just sitting on on the, on my veranda at home. Super cozy. You've got some, like, plants splashed around, which I really appreciate. That attention to detail. How bloody good.

Jackson Tozer:

I love green.

Freya Graf:

Me too. But I was just, like, also, like, I'm the host and it's my podcast but you you've gone and like beautified the set for me as I was like downstairs taking a piss. I love it.

Jackson Tozer:

I think it's like this the the filmmaker in me. I just I look at the frame of a picture I'm like, nah. That's gotta go there. That's gotta go there.

Freya Graf:

It's so good. Yeah. It's so good. Because it looks pretty ratty up here at the best of times. So good job. Well, they don't need to know that. But now it looks great. Yeah.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. Yeah. Beauty. Well, I guess at this point, I will have already read out your, your kind of bio so people know your accolades. I feel a little bit starstruck to be honest. Yeah. I mean, you've been in so much shit. What's like I mean, the ones that I've seen, mystery in between, love, Deadlock, Love, The Newsreader.

Freya Graf:

I don't know if I've seen anything else, but are there any, like, major ones that I've missed that you just wanna have a little, like, humble brag about Brad?

Jackson Tozer:

It's so it's it's interesting because, like, there's some projects in my career that I love that might might not have done as well on a on a bigger scale or Yeah. Might not be as well known for. So it's like, as I've said to my agent and my manager from day one, I'm not driven by the pursuit of fame. So or money. Like, those two things do not drive me. I wanna sit back at the end of my career and look at my filmography and be like, I'm so proud of each one of these. Or if I'm having to choose between two jobs and it's this one's gonna be pay big and it's gonna be on the big network or whatever or this one here, I'm gonna be a lot happier doing. I'm always gonna go with the happier one because, like, my mental health is something that's so important to me.

Jackson Tozer:

And so some of the projects that I've done in my career that I've I had the most fun on are the smaller ones, to be honest. Like Yeah. So many of the short films that I made when I first moved to Melbourne and started doing that because of what's tied to them and that is my passion and love for acting and filmmaking. Like, there's a lot of stuff, a lot of film festivals I'd go to and that's where I sort of really developed the love of it. And I try to say to anyone who wants to start acting now, like, what should I be working on? And give them a few hints and tips and but I always say, like, always work on staying passionate and hungry for it. Because the second you lose that, you're not gonna put up with all the rejection that you get. And there is a lot of rejection.

Freya Graf:

Oh, dude. Yeah.

Jackson Tozer:

And I think that will tie heavily into our conversation about dating, etcetera. But, yeah, it's the passion and the love for it. But to to to humbly brag,

Freya Graf:

I mean, that was that was the the humble part. Like, you nailed that. Okay. Now get to the brag part? I don't even like I don't even yeah. Yeah.

Jackson Tozer:

Get to that. The last couple years, things have really escalated on more of scale. And, I was really lucky to do a film last year called Ricky Sinicki with John Cena and Zac Efron, Andrew Santino, William H. Macy, and a few others.

Freya Graf:

Was Marky Mark part of that or did I make

Jackson Tozer:

No. So that's the new one. So, which I can talk about, so that's fine. Cool. I love that. Yeah. The I was actually more excited to do that film because of the director, Peter Farrelly, who's done some of the all time greatest comedy films of all time. Said all time twice there.

Jackson Tozer:

That's how big he is. I, he's made like Dumb and Dumber, me and myself and Irene. He won two Oscars for the film Green Book, which isn't a comedy, but it's still fantastic.

Freya Graf:

That's okay. Wow.

Jackson Tozer:

So I was excited to work with him because I know this guy has launched, like, Jim Carrey's career and

Freya Graf:

Oh my god.

Jackson Tozer:

This guy is just comedic genius and it's just someone I've always wanted to work with because I was like, how can he make me a better actor? So we I did Ricky Stenicky, and he gave me full rein to improvise, go off script, have fun with it, and that those that's what I'm getting at with films and projects that I love is where it's just playing. Like, really, all we do as a career is play dress up. You know, as a kid, you put wigs and costumes on, you play. That's That's all I'm doing for a living and getting paid to do it.

Freya Graf:

And it's just so

Jackson Tozer:

freeing and so fun. So the sets where you're allowed to go off script or you're allowed to just have fun and play, it's it's just so freeing. And it's Oh, freeing, and it's Oh, yeah. So rewarding. So, yeah, I did I did his film Ricky Suneke. And then, last year, he was shooting a new movie up in Queensland, called Balls Up with Mark Wahlberg and Paul Walter Hauser. And he just found a role in there for me to play. We just got a really good, relationship now, and he's, just such a great mentor figure and Fuck.

Jackson Tozer:

Yeah. It's been it's been great. So who knows? What he wherever he keeps making. Dude. Sounds like he's gonna try to find some work for me in there, which is really rewarding and humbling.

Freya Graf:

Fuck. Yeah. That's so exciting, dude. Sounds like your career is, like, just just about to pop off so hardcore.

Jackson Tozer:

It's so interesting that thing of, overnight success Yeah. Where it's I've been professionally acting for twelve years, and it it is that thing of, like, yeah, it's it's it's happening now and you're like, it's been happening slowly. It's a slow grind. Like

Freya Graf:

Oh, totally.

Jackson Tozer:

My first professional job was back in 2013. It was a sketch show. Four episode six sketch show on ABC two called This Is Littleton. And once I did that, I'm like, I've done it. I've I've I've achieved everything I need to achieve in my career. This is it. And to see where that led and to be where I am now, it's it's incredibly rewarding because I grew up in a small country town where options are very limited, and how big you can dream is very diluted down there.

Freya Graf:

Oh my god. Totally agree. I grew up in a little country town too. Yeah. And I wanted to be an actor. Yeah. And I was laughed at. Not in a good way.

Freya Graf:

Exactly. Even though I'm hilarious.

Jackson Tozer:

You are hilarious, and you deserve to be laughed with, not at. And for me, it was that thing of, like, oh, yeah. But it's all I wanna do. It's like there's nothing else I wanna do. A lot of people, you know, it's not achievable. It's not an obtainable goal. Well, why not? Why not? Why not? And, just kept working at it. And so now to be at a place where the last few years, it's been my full time work, and sprinkled in between that, I like to do work in disability support.

Jackson Tozer:

I work for a great company called Community Care Collective, and that is less about the money and more about the absolute gratitude and mental health that comes with working with, young adults with various levels of disability. And it will tie a lot into our chat about communication, right, and and and being considerate of other people and how you how you can communicate differently with someone who has a different way of communicating. Right?

Freya Graf:

Oh, absolutely.

Jackson Tozer:

You know, the way that you and I speak, is one way. And the way I would have to communicate with someone who has a certain level of autism, I'd have to change how I communicate with them

Freya Graf:

Mhmm.

Jackson Tozer:

Get on their level. And I think that ties a lot into, like, relationships and stuff as well. But, yeah, I'm really I'm really proud of the career, and I'm proud of where it's going. So it's a good place in my life right now.

Freya Graf:

Right on, dude. So exciting. And so just to, like, pop back to growing up in a little country town, Bryce, because can really resonate with that and the kind of dampening effect that can have on your hopes and dreams.

Jackson Tozer:

Mhmm.

Freya Graf:

There's kind of this small town minded, mindset, I guess, that I experienced anyway, which was very much like, oh, don't don't dream big. Yeah. It's never gonna happen for you. And, it, like, affected my, kinda, creativity, my goals, the things that I thought I could have or that I deserved to have. And so I just stopped even dreaming big, and affected my mental health quite a bit being in a little country town where I was definitely a bit of a black or rainbow sheep. I might, change it to

Jackson Tozer:

I love that. Shit. Yeah.

Freya Graf:

So I'm actually that. That. I was like, I was a black sheep

Jackson Tozer:

and I

Freya Graf:

was like, more like rainbow sheep. And I was

Jackson Tozer:

like, that's

Freya Graf:

actually true. Yeah. I've been a color slut my entire life. I used to get into trouble at school for wearing, like, fluoro tights under my school dress, because they weren't uniform.

Jackson Tozer:

I was gonna say, what's the problem with that? It's not uniform. Is that the

Freya Graf:

Yeah. It's not technically school uniform. I did it anyway. It was pretty lax at that school, to be honest. But, Do

Jackson Tozer:

you think school uniform, like, dilutes your self expression. Right? I understand it. It's it's almost a complete disappointment.

Freya Graf:

Dilutes your self expression.

Jackson Tozer:

Oh, a %.

Freya Graf:

Like, that's kinda where I was going

Jackson Tozer:

with that.

Freya Graf:

It's like it it really didn't encourage the parts of myself that now I actually love the most Mhmm. And value the most. In fact, it actually actively worked against those and sort of tried to prevent them from developing. And I feel like it was a bit of a handicap like it's not I didn't kind of figure out, you know, myself and become fucking sick and cool until I moved to Melbourne and I was actually surrounded by so much diversity and so much opportunity that I could be anyone and dress however I liked and yeah so I'm curious like don't like I just wanna hear a little bit about growing up in a small country town being like expressive. I know in my town, in my school, it would have been seen as a bit homo Yeah. If you're in into acting. If you wanted to act in the school play or a musical, especially if you're a guy or you're fucking gay, you're a pussy. Yeah.

Freya Graf:

So, like, how did that go for you? And yeah. Like, how did you kind of still maintain this, like, thirstiness or, like, hunger for acting and expressing yourself freely?

Jackson Tozer:

Fantastic way of wording that. You're gonna have to guide me back on track like bumpers, at a bowling alley because I have ADHD, and I will bounce around from one to another. But I resonated with so many things you said in there. I mean, the first thing that really jumped out to me was when you said when you moved to Melbourne and how different, you were almost like given permission to behave and given permission to be who you might have always been but never had a safe space to explore that.

Freya Graf:

Mhmm. And I was celebrated.

Jackson Tozer:

You were celebrated. And I think and it's not a it's not a, it's not in any way, talking down a country town upbringing because I love my hometown Portland. It's it's my home. It's always gonna be my home. I'm very proud to have been, to have been raised there, and I'm I'm still proud to go back all the time. I love it, and I love the people there. And it gave me a really great sense of community, But I do think country Victoria during the nineties is not the most progressive place to be.

Freya Graf:

Mhmm.

Jackson Tozer:

And I don't think it's a very safe space to explore maybe maybe who you are or who you want to be. It's not a real safe space to explore that. There's a lot of toxic masculinity and that's something that I've spent a great deal of my life trying to challenge. And there's a certain standard for what people think it is or it means to be a man or it means to be masculine, and I think that standard is almost upside down, you know. I don't think toughness comes from swallowing your emotions and dealing with it internally. I think it comes from being able to express yourself and show vulnerability because that is harder. That's why men don't do it.

Freya Graf:

And I'm

Jackson Tozer:

not gonna bloody talk about my feelings. Fuck that. Why not? It goes fucking too hard. That's what it is. Well, then do it. If if it's that hard, you gotta do it. Confront it. So the thing that I agree with heavily is, almost how, like, certain sexualities, are affiliated with certain interests Mhmm.

Jackson Tozer:

Or traits. Yep. I guess it's the same with gender too, you know. Like, oh, we're having a boy. Let's paint paint the nursery blue. We're having a girl. Let's plant paint it pink. Why? Why is that color of associated with that gender or that sexuality? It's it's just an interesting, social construct.

Jackson Tozer:

But I do think when I see a lot of people from my hometown, the second they get to Melbourne and go to uni or start studying art or something like that, they come out as gay or they come out as queer or as lesbian or they find who they are. And the sadness in that to me is they were always that person. They were just never allowed to express it. And that breaks my heart so much. And I do have friends who I'd who were in, high school who soon as they left Portland, and moved to a city where that is more accepted, that's when they became who they wanted to be. And that's why I'm really passionate about trying to challenge these toxic traits because you should always be allowed to be who you wanna be, especially if it's not hurting anyone else. You know, don't be a cannibal, obviously. But, you know, be be who you wanna be.

Jackson Tozer:

And you're right. Like, I I did. I love musical theater. It was something that my mother and I really connected and bonded with. I remember buying her the DVD of Phantom of the Opera. Gerard Butler. People want yeah. There's a movie of Phantom of the Opera and I grew up loving it and it wasn't till a few years ago that I realized Gerard Butler is the Phantom, can sing, and he's amazing in it.

Freya Graf:

Wow.

Jackson Tozer:

But there's that association. Right? You love theater. You love acting. You're gay.

Freya Graf:

You're a poof.

Jackson Tozer:

You're a poof. You're a pal. The amount of times I was called that because for for wanting to and it's just so funny to me that the same people who would call me gay for wanting to do the school play has now reached out to me on Instagram that I've had some success in my career being like, yeah, man. I tell everyone we used to be mates growing up. I'm like, no. You didn't. You bullied me for doing this thing.

Freya Graf:

Oh.

Jackson Tozer:

And now you wanna be a part of it. It's quite rich, I think. Mhmm. But and it's just why, like, I appreciate the people who had supported me the whole way.

Freya Graf:

You know, my

Jackson Tozer:

parents, my family, my friends, so much of the community.

Freya Graf:

So you did have some support.

Jackson Tozer:

Really did. I really did. Yeah. I I've always felt very supported.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. Okay.

Jackson Tozer:

And I do realize like anyone who's trying to put you down in any way, that's it's I think it's a lot less about you or more about about them.

Freya Graf:

Oh, absolutely. And that, you know, that's a little bit more prevalent, I think, in the small country towns because there's just less people. There's less diversity. And so there's less role models of different ways to be a man, for instance, or

Jackson Tozer:

So true.

Freya Graf:

You know?

Jackson Tozer:

So less diversity is really important too. And that that's why inclusion and diversity on film and TV is really important, you know? I grew

Freya Graf:

up get your role models in your small country town. You hope to at least see them on screen.

Jackson Tozer:

Well, I grew up seeing straight white guys on on screen Yeah. My whole life. So I knew that I could have chain obtain that goal. And that's why I do think that inclusion is so it's it's so important because you do wanna be a young boy or girl and and look at the TV or look at a film and be like, oh, I can beat that.

Freya Graf:

Mhmm.

Jackson Tozer:

You know? I think that's so important. And when you are in these small communities where it is not very diverse, and for me, it was wasn't just sexuality. There was cultural diversity as well.

Freya Graf:

Yep.

Jackson Tozer:

I knew very little about other cultures. Totally. Because I wasn't exposed to anything.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. Like, we my I don't know how big Portland is. I feel like we're around from oh, yay, where I grew up. I think it was, like, one and a half thousand when I was down. So it was tiny. It's like, if you're a girl, you played netball. Yeah.

Jackson Tozer:

If you're

Freya Graf:

a boy, you played football. Those were your only two options. Mhmm.

Jackson Tozer:

And

Freya Graf:

so in terms of, like, hobbies and opportunities to just explore different, things that you might be interested in that might, you know, expand your range as a human, expand your interest, expand, like, they just didn't really exist. And then if you were a little bit outside of that because of the, you know, human urge to belong and fit in Mhmm. It was really rife with this pack mentality of, like, oh, well, there's only, like, there was, like, 25 people in my entire year level. If you're not friends with them and if you don't fit in with them, you've got no fucking friends.

Jackson Tozer:

Yeah.

Freya Graf:

And so no one wants to be, you know, falling outside of that. And, yeah, everyone's sort of self policing. Like, you've gotta you've gotta be, I guess, exhibiting these really typical, like, behaviors of, like, the archetype that, you know, was okay as a man or a woman or whatever. But I wanna chat a little bit about your beautiful friend in high school because you said you had quite a bit of support. People actually did celebrate your plight to become an actor which is beautiful, I definitely didn't didn't have that. I remember in year seven we had to all sit in the circle first class introducing each other,

Jackson Tozer:

a lot

Freya Graf:

of us hadn't met because we'd all come from different primary schools.

Jackson Tozer:

That's vulnerable, isn't it?

Freya Graf:

Oh my god. And I remember

Jackson Tozer:

that. It's your first impression too. Right?

Freya Graf:

Yeah. First impression.

Jackson Tozer:

Did you make a joke or did you

Freya Graf:

No. Well, they treated it like it was a joke, but I I think the question was, like, introduce yourself, who you are, like, and what do you wanna be when you grow up? Which firstly, I have a big issue with trying to, like, pressure kids to know that.

Jackson Tozer:

I would love to talk about this as a subject on this. I would love to talk about this.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. Okay. Perfect. It's

Jackson Tozer:

really important. Yeah.

Freya Graf:

We'll do that. I haven't even looked at my questions

Jackson Tozer:

yet. Like, no.

Freya Graf:

I have so many. They're good. Yeah. We just okay. Run this out.

Jackson Tozer:

We can

Freya Graf:

always do part two. Yeah? And you know what I said? I was like, I wanna be an actress and a singer when I grow up. Because like that was the time of like Destiny's Child and Christina Aguilera

Jackson Tozer:

Australian Idol.

Freya Graf:

Australian Idol. Australian Idol. Exactly. Pop stars. Like oh my god. So yeah everyone laughed at me and thought that was like a big joke because they were like as if you could do that and how fucking up yourself do you have to be to want to be a famous actress.

Jackson Tozer:

Yeah.

Freya Graf:

And I just remember being like, oh, show you guys, like, you just wait. And it did in some sense put some fire under me for a hot minute but then that kind of attitude was so relentless surrounding me so constantly that it didn't take long before I gave up entirely on that dream.

Jackson Tozer:

And that breaks my heart when people Yeah. Because it it happens so often because it's such a challenging career full of rejection, full of being told you're not good enough, you can't do this. It is just a constant negative voice telling you you suck.

Freya Graf:

And the tall poppy syndrome in a sense of like, oh, you're like, you think you're hot shit, you are confident enough to think that you could be an actress and like become famous. That's a fucking joke. Let's tear her down. Mate. Because that confidence or that self belief or that creativity and expression is threatening to me.

Jackson Tozer:

Mhmm. That's exactly right. Because I do think it's a very fine line between arrogance and confidence. And I've tried to walk walk that line. You know, I took all my accomplishments down out of fear that I'm bragging about them, when really, I should be allowed to be proud of the work that I've done and the sacrifices I've made. Like, to be 33 now, the financial, emotional, physical, and mental sacrifices I've made for this Yeah. Is astronomical to me.

Freya Graf:

And most people couldn't do it.

Jackson Tozer:

And they don't see it either. And it's like then you get a win and you feel like you can't celebrate it because you don't wanna be bragging or you don't wanna be arrogant about it when really all it is is you're just concerned about what other people think. Yeah. And that's that's a really tough tough line, but it does break my heart that people do give up on their dreams or careers because other people wanna bring them down. That tall poppy thing is so so prevalent in Australia.

Freya Graf:

Precious, isn't it?

Jackson Tozer:

It is so brutal.

Freya Graf:

And in small country towns, even more so. Like, I really got this shit.

Jackson Tozer:

Oh, I think you're a big shot, are you?

Freya Graf:

Yeah. And, like, when I left and sort of started a new life in Melbourne, yeah, you know, I lost friends because they're just like, you've changed, man.

Jackson Tozer:

Yeah.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. So it's pretty it's pretty interesting, like, just seeing that your growth and your expansion as an individual is not celebrated or acknowledged in a positive way and seen as, like, something that can inspire and bring other people along with it. It's seen as something that needs to be squashed and torn down or criticized because it kind of makes other people reflect on where they're at. And this, like, comparison thing, it just sucks. Like, we're really taught to compare ourselves to others and feel yeah. Anyway.

Jackson Tozer:

The only thing made that a lot worse was COVID, was locked down. And having Yeah. Spent so much of our time on the Internet comparing yourself to everybody else in the world, like, it is Yeah. One of the most dangerous tools we have, I think, is Instagram, TikTok because honestly, to some degree, also probably film because it sets a real unrealistic, oops, a real unrealistic version of people's lives and you compare yourselves to that and then you go, I'm not living that life. What's wrong with me? Yeah. And I see it with friends who have had children.

Freya Graf:

Mhmm.

Jackson Tozer:

And they go to their friend's Instagram and their baby's all cute and quiet and they're like, wine's crying. What's wrong with me? You know, because they're not posting the baby shitting themselves at 1AM in the morning. They're only posting the good stuff.

Freya Graf:

Okay. But hang on. I'm just gonna, like, be the be the rails on the bumper cover. Yeah.

Jackson Tozer:

Yeah. I went rail off it.

Freya Graf:

Back. Because I'm just like, this we love this. Like, you are very passionate now about mental health, men's mental health in particular. And you I know I know you personally, and I know that you put a lot of things in place to protect your mental health and maintain it because, you know, we'll get to how hard your career is on a person's mental health. But, like, I know that you're, like, quite conscious around, yeah, doing things to just keep you on track. And I wanna just hear about, like, when you became cognizant of this as something that you really need to put energy and effort towards so that you don't just fucking fall into a heap.

Jackson Tozer:

Yeah. I I had I had fallen into a heap. So I I was very grateful and, very lucky and very grateful to have done an episode of the Imperfects podcast last year where I went into full detail of my entire life story and how I got here and the the struggles along the way. And, dude, that was the most validating conversation I think I ever had. It was so incredibly healthy for me to talk about it.

Freya Graf:

Mhmm. Was that the first time you'd spoken about that,

Jackson Tozer:

like, in my past? Forum. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So to give you just the the quick breakdown of it all, growing up in the country, I I my best friend, Kya, we were best friends since high school. She passed away when I was 19. She had diabetes, and she was away at uni, and she she passed away in her sleep. And I was doing nothing with my life at the time.

Jackson Tozer:

I had took a gap year and was just working and drinking and working and drinking, working to drink.

Freya Graf:

Mhmm.

Jackson Tozer:

And just, you know, as you do when you just leave school, you're like, great. No worries anymore. Always wanted to do acting, but never actively made the steps towards it. And then when she passed away, it just obviously rocked my world. It's like at a time where you've just finished that chapter of your life, school. It's closed. You're now an adult. You can go out into the world.

Jackson Tozer:

Your opportunities are endless. Bang. The most tragic thing that could ever happen to me happens to me. And as we spoke about being in a country town and not being vulnerable, not being open with communication, I just internalized everything. I didn't deal with it. I was crying every day, but didn't wanna show it. You know, you wanna be tough. You wanna be brave.

Jackson Tozer:

You know? But no. I was heartbroken, devastated. I was distraught. But it also inspired me to pack everything up and move move out of the city to go pursue this career. Because it's that thing of you can look so far down your life and make plans. But as we spoke about, like, nothing is given to you. Life is not fair. You know, you can worry about, oh, am I gonna die in my eighties or whatever? You can die in your twenties.

Jackson Tozer:

You can die like that. So I had to do something with my life, and I immediately it was like a week after a funeral, just spontaneously, no plan, just packed up and and moved to Geelong, and then moved to Melbourne after that to pursue this career. And it led me down a path of, marijuana addiction because I was not dealing with my emotions at all. And I needed a way to numb that, so I fell into a really dark period of my life. A good six, seven year period of waking up and smoking weed and being high all day every day. And with that led eating disorders, crippling anxiety, social anxiety, depression, which then all accumulated into a moment of attempted suicide and that completely changed my life because that was the rock bottom where it forced me to go to my best friends. I called them the day after and I said to them I need help. And I can't stress enough to any person out there, men in particular, the ability to ask for help is not only the strongest thing you can do, but the greatest thing you can do.

Jackson Tozer:

There is nothing weak in asking for help. It is you see people try to do too much. You wanna carry all these things and do this and do that. And I just think the ability to say, I need a hand with this, it drops your ego. And it's just the best it's I honestly think it's the only way to to achieve a positive, healthy life is to incorporate other people.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. You can't do it alone. We're not the vibe of it. You shouldn't.

Jackson Tozer:

And I see it a lot. And I see it in people who almost think that, you know, by for by asking for help, they're admitting that they can't do it on their own.

Freya Graf:

And that's okay. And there's something to be ashamed about. Exactly. And that's

Jackson Tozer:

it's just you know, as I said, I do see it a lot in men in particular. There's there's a a stigma around wanting to ask for help, but I can't stress enough. When I if I didn't ask for help, I'd be dead. And I would have done it by my own hand, and that's the most shameful thing that I could I could think of. I mean, that's selfish to me that I would waste this life and this opportunity that I've been given, that Kya was not given, Kya being my friend who passed away. She didn't have the opportunity to go off and live life and and achieve greatness. So that's why I've made it my goal to do that. And it's become something that is really important to me, mental health, because of that exact reason.

Jackson Tozer:

Grew up never talking about my emotions, never even knowing my emotions or understanding

Freya Graf:

them. Mhmm.

Jackson Tozer:

I see it a lot now in my partner who who has a daughter. And if her daughter's having an episode of anger or, you know, maybe throws food or has a tantrum, instead of yelling at her, she explained this really beautifully. She said, she doesn't understand her emotions yet. Why would I punish her for feeling them? And I was like, that's so beautiful. And that level of patience, I tell you this, like, her level of patience is the most admirable like, I I cannot express enough. I cried the other night when I saw how patient she was and how understanding. I'm like I know. And this is not a slight on my parents, but they would have just told me to go to my room and yelled at me.

Jackson Tozer:

Totally. She got down on her level, spoke in a calm voice.

Freya Graf:

I know you're feeling frustrated. Exactly. That's so understandable. I know.

Jackson Tozer:

I was like, what is where's that come from? And she's like, well, she doesn't know what these emotions are. So why would I punish her for feeling them? I'm like, that is, I think, where we're moving in terms of society, and I think that comes a lot with therapy. Right?

Freya Graf:

Yeah.

Jackson Tozer:

We are a generation that is actively going to therapy, and there's other groups of people, generations before us who see that a lot snowflakes, all this sort of crap. They're talking about it like everyone's got ADHD. Everyone's got depression. It's like, yeah. We kinda do, and we're doing something about it. That's important. Your generation or or your thought collective thought bubble it up, turned to alcohol instead. You know, you see the negative results of that.

Jackson Tozer:

You took it out on gambling or alcohol or even on your family

Freya Graf:

Yeah.

Jackson Tozer:

Which is even more heartbreaking for on yourself.

Freya Graf:

Ultimately. Exactly.

Jackson Tozer:

So I do think the ability to talk openly and vulnerably is one of the most important things that we need to do. And I I only was able to do that by having a real moment of weakness and then having the strength to seek help. So I've been going therapy consistently for the last few years and I'm still discovering stuff about myself. But I think the important thing is having a safe environment to do so. Yeah. And I do think that's an important thing to keep in in terms of relationship as well. Not punishing somebody for being vulnerable. Not using it against

Freya Graf:

them. Oh my god. Totally.

Jackson Tozer:

Yeah. And That's what I love what you do.

Freya Graf:

Thank you.

Jackson Tozer:

I think it's so important. Even that sexology, I didn't even know it was a thing until a year or two ago. I've got another friend, Coby Baker, who's a sexologist. And there's an open discussion and open communication about this stuff that's been going on, and it's so important. And I just think it's so important what you do, which is having open, honest conversations.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. And I guess also just highlighting the way that gendered stereotypes, like, harm us so much. Like, the whole thing you said around, you know, just asking for help and speaking to your friends about your emotions and getting emotionally literate about your own emotions takes a lot of work and takes a lot of strength, especially for men, because of the gendered stereotypes that we've all grown up with and the expectations and the sort of narratives that we get spoon fed, or sort of I have this image of, like, it being sort of, shoved down our throats like foie gras, geese getting force fed

Jackson Tozer:

Yeah.

Freya Graf:

You know, to, like, fatten up their livers. Like, we get force fed whether we like it or not, all of these, ideas around what it is to be strong, what it is to be a man, the fact that being a man means being strong, but being a woman means being weak, like all of these stupid completely wrong gender norms, And all of a sudden it's become, you know, so incredibly hard to reach out for help and admit that you're struggling, especially if you're a man. And that's why seven out of nine suicides are men. Mhmm. You know what I mean?

Jackson Tozer:

Statistic that generally just like it breaks me. It really breaks me. I have a group chat with some of my five of my closest friends. We've had this chat since we were 15.

Freya Graf:

Mhmm.

Jackson Tozer:

We're all in our mid thirties now so it's there's a lot of history there.

Freya Graf:

And just to quickly, just as like a little fact checky thing, it's a nuance. That that is completed suicides. Actually, more women attempt

Jackson Tozer:

Intent. Right.

Freya Graf:

But more men complete suicide.

Jackson Tozer:

Yeah.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. So just just in case yeah. Just to clarify. It's a

Jackson Tozer:

it's a it's a terrible statistic regardless of that.

Freya Graf:

Yeah.

Jackson Tozer:

And what breaks my heart with with men in particular in that circumstance is that that's their answer instead of

Freya Graf:

That's preferable than just yeah.

Jackson Tozer:

Exactly. Like I've said this to friends. I had a friend say this to me when I was battling my drug addiction. Said I'd rather help you than bury you, and that was really important to me. Because I always felt like a burden, you know? I felt like I was being a burden by saying I'm struggling or this or that. And

Freya Graf:

Yeah. I

Jackson Tozer:

think that's a really important thing to hear because the thing that prevented me from suicide was the thought of not it not taking my pain away, but it passing my pain onto everybody else around me.

Freya Graf:

Complete fucking handball. There's,

Jackson Tozer:

oh my god. I can't deal with this here. You take it.

Freya Graf:

Yeah.

Jackson Tozer:

I'm out.

Freya Graf:

There's a I don't know if he's gonna know simplifying

Jackson Tozer:

the whole thing, obviously. But yeah.

Freya Graf:

Yeah.

Jackson Tozer:

Yeah. And it's just like I say, just to finish this thing with the group chat was that one of my friends on the group chat had spoken about how a a colleague of his had killed himself, and it just broke us all. It's just like, why why are we still why men why are we still doing this? Why is this our escape? Why is this our only answer? And it's sad that people get to that point in their life, where that is the only logical answer to their problem. And I just think it's not. I think talking with your mates, with your family, and if you can't do that, there's therapy. There's there's other outlets.

Freya Graf:

There's so many yeah. There's so many ways. But it's tricky. I mean, I am not even a man, but I remember growing up, like, when fucked up stuff happened to me. I the my biggest fear was crying in front of someone.

Jackson Tozer:

Oh, yeah.

Freya Graf:

I didn't wanna lose it. I just didn't wanna lose composure and lose control in front of someone, and that was more scary than the alternative, which was bottling it all up and dealing with it all on my own and feeling way more fucked up. But there was just this stigma around crying, and I'm not even a guy. Like, I can't imagine how tricky that would be. And just before it, drifts, there was something I wanted to insert because it's a cool, it's a cool analogy, although it, when I first heard it, it was not referring to this, and it might sound a bit callous almost. But when you sort of said, oh, for me, it feels like it would be selfish Mhmm. To take my life because then I'm handballoting handballing it onto, you know, the people around me. I have experienced a close person to me committing not you can't say committing anymore, actually.

Freya Graf:

That's a good good thing to to mention. I think you have to say completing suicide or suiciding because it's not a crime that you're committing. Anyway, I have had someone close to me take their life, and at the time, I was really young, I thought it was selfish as fuck. I was like, what the hell, sister? Like, check yourself. I can't believe you've just left us all with this fucking heartbreaking mess to, like, recover from, and you're not here anymore. And, like, obviously, if someone is in that much pain, you know, and that feels like they're only out, then I'm not begrudging them, that decision. They're obviously not well. But, yeah, a a little analogy that I heard recently in the facilitation world because I've been doing some training in facilitation and co facilitation is like there's this term in I think it's rugby.

Freya Graf:

It's called a hospital pass. Have you heard of it? At Or footy? Or

Jackson Tozer:

I know I know in terms of AFO when they kick the ball so high, they call it the hospital kick because you look like Oh.

Freya Graf:

To know. It's like so it's like you pass it to someone as No. No. I'm thinking something. Someone who's like literally just about to tackle. You pass it to someone who completely can't Yes. Can't actually do anything with that ball and having the ball You're

Jackson Tozer:

throwing them in though

Freya Graf:

mean that yeah. You're throwing them under the bus. You're you're giving them a hospital pass because they're about to get fucking put down.

Jackson Tozer:

Yeah.

Freya Graf:

And I and you don't wanna do that in facilitation where you just, like, hospital pass it to your cofacilitator when they've clearly got nowhere to go, and they're just gonna get fucking eaten alive, or eat shit.

Jackson Tozer:

Mhmm.

Freya Graf:

And when you were talking about suicide and it feeling like you wouldn't be dealing with your pain, you'd just be passing it off to your loved ones to deal with. Yeah. That feels like a real hospital pass where you're, like, setting them up for failure because you, you can't actually deal with it all yourself. But instead of, you know, the alternative could be that you just all share the load and kinda go and sit in the waiting room of the hospital together rather than you being like, alright. I'm out of here. And that's not to, like, judge or shame anyone that takes their own life.

Jackson Tozer:

No. Not in any way because it is it

Freya Graf:

is I feel you.

Jackson Tozer:

And it's a unique experience for everyone. So as anything in life, we can only speak on our own experiences. And for me, it was, it was just the the, you know, gratitude of having family and friends and people who loved and cared for me

Freya Graf:

Yeah.

Jackson Tozer:

That helped me get through it. And I do I just think that with a lot of people, you might get to that point where you don't feel loved and and you don't feel like anyone cares. And I always just question you to take a step back and challenge that.

Freya Graf:

Yep. You

Jackson Tozer:

know? Has anyone reached out to you in the last day, week? If they have, they care. You know?

Freya Graf:

Mhmm.

Jackson Tozer:

There's the world will miss you. And

Freya Graf:

And also if they haven't, it doesn't mean they don't care. They might have their own stuff going on. And that's the

Jackson Tozer:

They might be doing the same thing, not communicating their own problems.

Freya Graf:

That's the vicious thing is, like, so often and I'll I've just learned this lesson time and time again in my work. So often, we're all having really similar experiences, and we're all struggling with really similar stuff, but no one's talking about it. So we're all feeling completely alone and isolated in that experience. So so much of, like, what I'm trying to do is tell stories to normalize struggling, to kind of bare my soul and use myself as an example or run workshops where I'm encouraging people to share their stories and actually see that, oh, there's so much I can relate to in, like, every person that's shared in this group. Because, yeah, not feeling as alone and recognizing that all of your feelings are really normal and understandable and welcome

Jackson Tozer:

Yep.

Freya Graf:

And do have an outlet once you can get over the hump of just opening your mouth and talking about them.

Jackson Tozer:

Yeah. And I'm a firm believer that it doesn't all have to be doom and gloom. Like, if you wanna have a conversation about something that's heavy, it doesn't have to be a heavy conversation. It can just be how you and I talking right now. Mhmm. Like, hey, I I'm struggling with this. I wanna instead of, like, do you mind if we sit down and just have a it it it can be as uncomfortable as as you like or as comfortable as you like. I turned the death of my best friend into the main driving force in my career.

Jackson Tozer:

I wrote a live comedy show about it last year called Assemble that I've, performed at Fringe. And it was

Freya Graf:

Sold out, by the way. Sold out. Yeah. Sold out. A little plus.

Jackson Tozer:

It was a fifty five minute show, and it was fifty minutes of nonstop silly goofy characters joking around and then five minutes of a very serious conversation that sums up the whole theme of everything I'm trying to say. And this is what I love about comedy and what I love about performing is you can use comedy to lower your guard Mhmm.

Freya Graf:

And then

Jackson Tozer:

you can sneak in there some Yeah.

Freya Graf:

Real feelings.

Jackson Tozer:

You know? Yep. Ricky Gervais' show, Derek, is one of my favorite shows. It's so funny and so heartwarming because you'll be laughing your ass off. And then all of a sudden, you start feeling emotion. You're like, oh my god. How do you do that? Mhmm. And it's almost a trick. Right?

Freya Graf:

Human's such a good Trojan horse.

Jackson Tozer:

Absolutely. It that is a great way to describe it. Yeah. It is a Trojan horse.

Freya Graf:

I do it with sexuality stuff that people also feel really uncomfortable with. I'm like, cool. Let's get some humor happening Yeah. And then we'll slip stuff in before they've even

Jackson Tozer:

Yeah.

Freya Graf:

Realized that they might feel uncomfortable about it.

Jackson Tozer:

If you can laugh in the face of adversity, you're bulletproof. And I I do think, you know, if if you are struggling to talk about something, find a different approach. Find a different way to talk about it.

Freya Graf:

Well, and also it can feel like I know for me, when my cousin who I was super close with took her own life I was 15 just about to turn 16 and I remember like we had this it's like a little country school everyone knows everything and we had this little tiny room that we had this casual part time school counselor I don't know anyone that actually saw her or spoke to her Oh, well, they probably

Jackson Tozer:

did, but

Freya Graf:

maybe they didn't talk

Jackson Tozer:

about it.

Freya Graf:

And she pulled me out of class one day

Jackson Tozer:

and tried to be maths being like, I just spoke to the counselor. Yeah.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. I still remember her name was miss Lavois Pierre. That is a name and a heart. I know right? She was the diversity the token diversity card. She was literally the only person from anywhere other than like rural white Victoria. Where is

Jackson Tozer:

she from? That sounds French. French, I think.

Freya Graf:

You

Jackson Tozer:

better say French?

Freya Graf:

French. Yeah. French. And she pulled me into her little room, and I was just mortified. And I just remember, like, she was just asking me how I was and offering me an opportunity to talk if I wanted to. Not really putting any pressure on, but I just felt like my heart pounding. My eyes were doing this thing that happens when I get really, like, I don't know, anxious or uncomfortable. Mhmm.

Freya Graf:

Like, flickering and, like, hard blinking kind of thing. My whole fucking body was just burning. I was so incredibly uncomfortable and horrified that she might, you know, open up a can of worms and I might cry in front of her or that I might finally like, it was like I had to have this armor on and I had to keep it all locked in to keep my shit together to just function and get through each day. And if she managed to, you know, just get through that armor a tiny bit, it was just all over Red Rover, and I would never be able to put a lid on it again, and I would just be a fucking hot mess.

Jackson Tozer:

Mhmm.

Freya Graf:

And it was truly scary. Like, I was really, really, really, really uncomfortable with showing vulnerability, and that kind of realness on that end of the spectrum of emotions around anyone, especially, like, adults. And, yeah, that like, that's me as, like, a woman who socialized as a woman, you know, to think that emotions are actually kind of okay to express. So, like, I can't imagine what it would be like for a man. And a

Jackson Tozer:

very different experience. Right? I mean, as a woman, do you feel like being vulnerable like that can be weaponized against you?

Freya Graf:

Well, that's the thing. My relationship with being a woman and femininity was, like, I didn't respect I I had internalized misogyny out the wazoo. I was, like, women are weak, women are pussies, cry babies, like anything to do with femininity I kinda resisted and so I was a bit of a tomboy and I wanted to be tough. I was the oldest of four kids. I had a pretty, pretty, yeah, pretty abusive dad. I will say I'd say that's accurate, like, yeah and, and I had to be really fucking strong and I had to keep my shit together so I and I didn't really have any role models of like seeing women doing that in a way that I admired or respected and so I was like well I've just gotta act like a fucking man then to like command that respect and be strong and tough. But what I was going to say is that I that's where I started, and it just every time I did, like, let a chink, you know, open in my armor and I talked a little bit here and there, like, it got easier. So I just needed to practice that skill of opening up and getting more comfortable with it.

Freya Graf:

Like, it was mortifying in the beginning. And then over time, it got easier and easier and easier. And now I'm, like, crying in front of fucking anyone and everyone.

Jackson Tozer:

Yeah.

Freya Graf:

Like, you know, I I'm way better at expressing my emotions and talking about them now through sheer practice and just normalizing that and then finding other people to surround myself

Jackson Tozer:

with that

Freya Graf:

also normalize that as a practice that we're all agreeing to be comfortable with and share, you know? Yeah. So it's like it's fucking hard in the beginning, but the more you practice it the easier it gets and the more normal it feels.

Jackson Tozer:

So true. Like I don't know tears are just pain escaping the body. It's where else does it go? I think there's it's a I think crying is one of the is the healthiest outlet for your emotions rather than bottling it up. It goes somewhere where it builds and becomes something else. Stress, anger, people turn to alcohol, they become abusive because they don't know what you know, like the example with my partner and her daughter, like, I don't know what this emotion is. Then fucking address it. Learn what it is and learn a healthier way to to to

Freya Graf:

deal with it. And I think

Jackson Tozer:

I was always embarrassed about crying. I'm a big cryer. I cry all the time. I will sometimes cry in a song I've heard 30 times for no reason or in a moment in movie. I remember, having to go to the hospital at, like, 2AM when I was living in Geelong. I was having back spasms. I woke up with back spasms. No idea what was going on.

Jackson Tozer:

My housemate drove me to the hospital. I didn't know what to do. I just panicked and went to the emergency ward. And they put me in a room and gave me some painkillers and whatnot. And the doctor comes in and and I was just crying. He's like, oh my god. Is the pain that bad? And I was like, no. Someone left the TV, and I was watching the series finale of Friends.

Jackson Tozer:

And when Rachel's like, I got off the plane, I was just weeping. I was like, I've seen this 20 times. Why am why is it hitting me? That's so cute. And it's just this thing of like yeah. I was embarrassed. I was ashamed to cry. I remember getting concussed in footy and being walked off the field, and all I can remember is my dad's whispering mood. He's like, stop crying.

Jackson Tozer:

Stop crying. Oh. And I'd like it was just there's there's this weird thing of, like, it's not masculine to cry. It's Yeah. We all cry. Yeah. What makes it masculine or not? It's Totally. You know, it's it's being vulnerable.

Jackson Tozer:

I think surrounding yourself with people who are comfortable and encourage you to be vulnerable, other people you need to spend your life with. And that's why I'm in a really great place in my life right now is because every person who's in it is in it for a reason. I have a very close circle of people in my life. I, you know, a lot of people get mad at me for not replying to them a lot. But I just I honestly have about 10 people who are who are my core people in my life. And I don't wanna branch out further than that because these people are really supportive and I've done a lot of work on my mental health. And I just know my, I know who I need around me and I know who I want to be there for as well.

Freya Graf:

Mhmm.

Jackson Tozer:

And that's that's also really important. Like, I'm the sort of person who

Freya Graf:

wants to help everybody.

Jackson Tozer:

Yeah. That's not possible. Yeah. And when you when you try to be that person, you you almost wear a lot of the burdens that you don't necessarily I don't want to say need to because it's not a need, but I think it's more you don't have the capacity for as well.

Freya Graf:

Just don't, and they're not yours to have to shoulder. And I guess, like, in your industry as well, the more the more famous you get and the more people you meet on set and in the, you know, networking events and this and that, you know, the more people are gonna wanna be your friend and wanna get into that inner circle.

Jackson Tozer:

Yeah. I see that a lot.

Freya Graf:

But I wanna sorry. I'm gonna cut you off because I just wanna keep us on track. And we haven't done the segment get pregnant and die. I wanna, like, insert that there, and then I got a fresh line of questioning to just, like, nudge us in a certain direction. So yeah. Hey, baby babes. Sorry to interrupt. I just had to pop my head into the lounge here and mention another virtual lounge that I'd love you to get around.

Freya Graf:

It's the Labia Lounge Facebook group that I've created for listeners of the potty to mingle in. There you'll find extra bits and bobs like freebies, behind the scenes, or discounts for offerings from guests who have been interviewed on the podcast. They'll also be, hopefully, inspiring, thought provoking conversations and support from a community of labial legends like yourself. My vision for this is that it becomes a really supportive, educational, and hilarious resource for you to have more access to me and a safe space to ask questions you can't ask anywhere else. So head over to links in the show notes or look up the Labia Lounge group in Facebook and I'll see you in there. And now back to the episode. Give us an anecdote about your sex ed if you can remember.

Jackson Tozer:

Don't have

Freya Graf:

sex because you will get pregnant and die. Don't have sex in a missionary position. Don't have to have sex standing up. Just don't do it. Promise?

Jackson Tozer:

Well, it's it's not just the country upbringing. Right? But I went to two religious schools.

Freya Graf:

Oh, no.

Jackson Tozer:

So sex ed

Freya Graf:

is yeah.

Jackson Tozer:

It's very different.

Freya Graf:

Oh, god.

Jackson Tozer:

It is oh, no. You can't say that. Oh, god. I remember getting in trouble because I spelled god's name with a lowercase g. Oh. And that was, like, blasphemous. I remember in promiscuity, I I got, like, you get written your notes on your exam, whatever it is. It's like, it's a capital g.

Jackson Tozer:

It's like, that is blasphemy. And I'm like, sorry. Oh, dude.

Freya Graf:

Fail. Immediate fail.

Jackson Tozer:

Now I was raised in religious environments. I'm not religious in any way. I'm, I have a lot of thoughts on that. And I do think that causes a lot of harm. Again, we talk about sexuality. You know, it says once in the Bible, you're not allowed to be gay, but it says three times that you're not allowed to have shellfish, but that's fine. We'll pick and choose. There's just so much to it.

Jackson Tozer:

Like, there is a but I there's also a credit a lot of my morals and the way I view the world to religion too, to be honest. Like, I I I like to I like to be supportive. I like to give back. There's a lot of pros to it, but I do think there's a lot of cons to it. So that's all that's all I'll say on that. But sex ed was not you you say it in your intro. It's it's it's kind of a piece of shit everywhere. It really is.

Jackson Tozer:

And it's so backward thinking almost. It's it can be quite dangerous. It can be shameful.

Freya Graf:

Mhmm.

Jackson Tozer:

You can be shamed or embarrassed.

Freya Graf:

Can you give a specific example where you felt shamed or embarrassed for someone in your class or I mean, it's just was

Jackson Tozer:

more of a lack of an lack of an understanding and especially in a religious school. I mean

Freya Graf:

Did you have sex ed in a religious school? Do you

Jackson Tozer:

know what's weird? I I kind of remember and touching on it in primary school in grade six.

Freya Graf:

Right.

Jackson Tozer:

I don't remember much of it in high school, which is where you would think most of it should be because that's where you're sexually becoming awakened and, discovering and learning. I mean, the the the always the embarrassing thing for teenage boys is getting boners. Yep. Like, we used to call it the, the jelly in the pouch where you tuck it up underneath your school belt and your penis will just pop up the top of your

Freya Graf:

shorts like a jelly poking out of town. That's the best too.

Jackson Tozer:

So it's embarrassing. Right? Like, it just happens out of nowhere. And as a kid, you just it's confusing. And this ties sort of ties into what we're talking about what we wanted to talk about earlier is that pressure of puberty. I think most of my sex ed, to be honest, came from having two older brothers and just listening to them talk. That and film and TV. Not a healthy outlet, I think. You know, and that was sort of during an age where you're coming off the back of those eighties comedies which were all about like this just it was just sex.

Jackson Tozer:

It was all written by men clearly but it was all just like they talk about what's the film revenge of the nerds? There's essentially a sexual assault scene in that and it's praise. It's like the nerd tricks the cheerleader into sleeping with him because she thinks it's another dude.

Freya Graf:

Oh, cool.

Jackson Tozer:

And it's it's kinda it's really not okay. And there's just it's coming off an error of that. And I grew up in a lot of movies, you know, wanting to be an actor. I I watched so many comedies and so many films. And it's probably not, yeah, the best example of healthy conversations around sex.

Freya Graf:

Would you be open to, like, a bit of a spicy question?

Jackson Tozer:

Please.

Freya Graf:

And you might not have an example of this or Mhmm. If you like talking about it. But okay. So now that you're an adult and you're so much more across all of the consent stuff Mhmm. You just described a a a scene that, like, all of us as teenagers would not have thought, oh, that's pretty much rape. Like, that's fucked. But now you're aware of that. Like, do you have you, in that process of learning and developing your understanding of consent, look back at any particular moments when you were intimate with someone and just go, oh, fuck.

Freya Graf:

Like, I might have, like, accidentally sort of coerced them into that situation or I like you know I was just running a script that I'd basically fucking seen time and time again in movies where you know you're just really persistent and you just you just gotta be, you know, going after what you want and not taking no for an answer because, like, girls actually do wanna fuck you, you just have to be persistent or, like, not that you've been in that situation, but a lot of men I know do look back now and go, oh my god.

Jackson Tozer:

Mhmm.

Freya Graf:

I didn't know any better, but actually, I think I put some girls in really awful situations without meaning to.

Jackson Tozer:

A %. Yeah.

Freya Graf:

Do you have an example?

Jackson Tozer:

I I I think I think all men and women I I think all people go through that reflectiveness. Right? Like, none of us have gotten to this point in our life being perfect. We always have to have the right to acknowledge that we've done wrong and to learn from it. I don't have a specific example, but I do know that I struggled a lot with dating because I was trying to walk the line of, like, I don't wanna be so progressive enough that I'm coming across as inappropriate or creepy. So then I won't be progressive at all. And that was, like, why isn't he making a move of me? Okay. I'll make a move. What do I do? Do I put my hand on your thigh? And then you go, oh, hang on.

Jackson Tozer:

That might not be appropriate. And I always try to find I was struggling to balance that line. I do have an exam I remember having, what would have been essentially a one night stand. But when the the lady had come back to my house, there was a lot of I I wasn't getting clear consent from her, and it made me really worried, to the point where I nearly just want a contract for her to sign us. It was a lot of, like, she was like, wait, how did I get here? I said, well, you, you know, you paid for the Uber. And then I was I was just confused. I was a bit like really worried about if I had if I had gotten her and made her uncomfortable in any way. So I had made the decision, this isn't gonna go any further.

Jackson Tozer:

We're just gonna sleep here. I'm not gonna do anything. And then she kept, physically touching me. And then if I touch her back, she was a bit withdrawn. So I was quite confused in that moment. And for a long time after that, I was really concerned that I'm like, did I do something wrong here? Did I I've clearly done something that made her feel uncomfortable or perhaps she was on substances that maybe led her to want to come to mine. And then when they wore off, she was a bit confused.

Freya Graf:

And it

Jackson Tozer:

was a it was a really uncomfortable situation. So I couldn't imagine what it felt like for her. But I do wanna stress that nothing was ever going to happen after that. Because consent is something that is it was not talked about enough growing up. It really was not talked about enough. Yeah. And it's gotta be it it's gotta be really clear, I think. There's no room for interpretation with it.

Jackson Tozer:

And especially as young men, you're not really taught that. Right? I don't think you're really taught. And when you're watching movies and this is the danger of people like your Andrew Tates and that of the world where they're just setting the worst example for young men.

Freya Graf:

Mhmm.

Jackson Tozer:

And being a teenager when your body is going through changes that it will never go through again. You will never change more in a shorter time span for the rest of your life. Mhmm. Unless of course in the for menopause for women. But for teenagers, your body goes you go from being one person to a completely different person in the span of a few years, and it is so confusing and fucked up. And that's when schools are like, now what are you gonna do for the rest of your life? Because you're gonna make that decision right now. That level of pressure and stress, you don't understand your yourself. You don't understand your body.

Jackson Tozer:

You don't understand your emotions. It is so confusing, and I do think a lot of young men in particular will get, will find role models or information in the wrong places.

Freya Graf:

Well, and also now, like, there's the added layer for young boys of, like, oh, masculinity is toxic and boys are bad and consent, consent, consent. You're all doing stuff wrong. Like, I think the way that we're trying to talk and educate is not that effective when it's making boys feel like they're being blamed or they're they're being punished for stuff that, like, men have done before them, but they're still teenagers. They're only just figuring this stuff out. And they're already sensing this real man hating attitude of, like, you're instantly in this category of, like, wrongness and toxicity and yeah. So it's tricky to, like, go through puberty and figure out your sexuality at the best of times, let alone with this kind of, yeah, quite quite new wave of, like, man, like, attacking masculinity or something.

Jackson Tozer:

Of course. I I I understand what you're saying and I agree because I've definitely felt it and I've definitely been defensive of it in in areas where I should have been less defensive and listened more.

Freya Graf:

But that's the thing. I think it immediately makes teenage boys defensive and feel like shit about themselves and internalize that and then maybe be confused about how the fuck to actually be a healthy man and how to make a move without breaching someone's boundaries and how to actually, you know, get consent when it is a bit of a confusing situation and yeah. It's just a bit of a a cesspit, really, for people to navigate. And it's that thing of

Jackson Tozer:

it's good. Communication is the key. I mean, having that that lady in in bed and not getting clear consent. And then I was like, what do you what is it that you like? She goes, I like a man that just takes control and takes what he wants. I'm like, I'm very confused right now. Because I feel like if I did that, it could be perceived as not getting consent, and it it was a really confusing time. And I think it's less about what these teenagers need to know is that it's not an attack on them. It's more of an acknowledgment of historical, of of wrongdoings historically Yeah.

Jackson Tozer:

And being able to acknowledge it and learn and grow from it, instead of taking it personally and being being defensive of it. I've I've had that in me with with people who are like all men are pigs. Saying this this to my face. Going on a rant about how all men are disgusting, all men will do this, all men will do that, and me being like, you know I'm a man.

Freya Graf:

Right? I'm sitting right in my head.

Jackson Tozer:

And I actively am trying to fight against that. So oh, not you. Not you. Well then don't say all men.

Freya Graf:

Yeah.

Jackson Tozer:

And what I learned about that is it's actually not about me in that situation. Why I was getting defensive was because hearing that was validating the negative voice in my head that was telling me I am a piece of shit.

Freya Graf:

Mhmm.

Jackson Tozer:

And it's that voice saying, see, you're I'm right. You're wrong. You are disgusting. You are these things. When really it's somebody who's like the world needs to change. Men do need to be bad and we do need to take responsibility for our own actions. And there's certainly been times throughout my history where I've done inappropriate things. I was a big butt smacker of mates growing up.

Jackson Tozer:

I've definitely been a butt smacker of housemates when I was like, you know what? That's actually really inappropriate. I shouldn't have done that. I apologize for that.

Freya Graf:

I think it's fine with certain people.

Jackson Tozer:

Certain people give it again. I agree. Definitely find certain people, but that person has to be on board with it. Right? Like

Freya Graf:

Yeah. Yeah.

Jackson Tozer:

Yeah. Yeah.

Freya Graf:

Yep.

Jackson Tozer:

You know, I've had a I've got female housemates who smack me in the butt and then I'd smack them on the butt and they'd be like, that's inappropriate. I go, oh,

Freya Graf:

well then, I'm confused as

Jackson Tozer:

to why it was appropriate for you to do it to me. But at the same time, it's it's all it's all communication. Right? It's it's and it's definitely being able to take a step back and and own your mistakes. And yeah. There's there's definitely a lot of things that I, growing up, not just sexually, but, like, with how I viewed the world. My opinions of things had to change.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. And that's so growling your own. You're, like, open to changing your opinions. You're, like, open to having them be malleable. Like, you can have opinions and beliefs, but you hold them lightly. Mhmm. Lightly.

Jackson Tozer:

Mhmm.

Freya Graf:

And and you're not, like, closed off to having them changed if that becomes necessary and, you know. One thing I'm interested in

Jackson Tozer:

Yep.

Freya Graf:

Is Pottery. Love to get into pottery, actually. You said that. So with your acting career, obviously, like you alluded to earlier, I think it's not a secret that in the world of acting, you're just gonna get rejected over and over.

Jackson Tozer:

Oh, yeah.

Freya Graf:

Over and over. And that's one thing that a lot of people, men in particular, are not taught how to deal with. And so, like, rejection in the dating world can be really, can be taken poorly. And a lot of the time, you know, women go along with sexual things because they're afraid of rejecting the man because they're, like, fearful that he'll just do it anyway, and then it'll be it'll be something against so, like, this is something that I hear a lot and in that consent space just to relate back to what we're talking about. Often, women will yep. They'll in that situation with that woman, like, they might get back to the house, realize, actually, I don't really wanna do this anymore, but they'll just go along with it because they're they're afraid that if they, if they say no, then it will turn into rape. Mhmm. But if they just go along with it, then technically, it was, like, their own doing and that they kinda consented, so it feels less traumatic than if they'd tried to say no.

Freya Graf:

And then this sort of hectic reason a lot of people just go along with things rather than rejecting a man is because they're afraid it's gonna hurt his feelings.

Jackson Tozer:

Mhmm.

Freya Graf:

And men aren't great at handling rejection and having their feelings hurt and their pride dented or their ego, you know. So, I feel like practicing being rejected and, you know, just not letting that affect you so massively is such a skill to have in life, and you would have gotten so much practice at that. I wanna, like, know if, like, one, how you handle the rejection, and two, like, does it still fucking hurt as much as it did in the beginning? Like, how do you make that mean something about you? And has it has it played into your relationship with dating and copping rejection from women?

Jackson Tozer:

A %. I need I'll need you to guide me back on track

Freya Graf:

here

Jackson Tozer:

because There

Freya Graf:

was like three questions.

Jackson Tozer:

But there's one thing that popped into my head that I think is really important to talk about in my industry. Yeah. And that is, I think this came about as a as a result of the Me Too movement, but, there's a role now within our industry called intimacy coordinators.

Freya Graf:

Yes. How good is that? And I

Jackson Tozer:

think that's a really important thing to talk about before I get back into the rejection thing. When you talk about women just going with it, out of fear of rejection, I could not imagine the pressure of female actresses who are on set and the director goes, now just take your top off, get your tits out. And now you just kiss in there. When you're in that space and there's hundreds of people around you and if you say no, you're holding up production Yeah. And the disgusting thing of your wine scenes of the world, are there these people who are like, I have the power to destroy your career. Oh my god. So you do what I tell you to do or your career's over. And to be in that position of not having time to think, contemplate, all you're thinking about is the consequences.

Jackson Tozer:

I could never as as a straight white man, I could never understand what that would have felt like. The implication of having intimacy coordinators is, I think, the greatest thing we have. And it's for any intimacy. On Deadlock, I had to have, in Mikaela Bannes was our intimacy coordinator. Fantastic actress, Mikaela Bannes. And they booked me in a session with her to have a discussion. I was like, I don't think there's any intimacy in my scene. She goes, but you're not wearing a shirt.

Jackson Tozer:

That was what the conversation are you comfortable with not wearing a shirt? I was like, oh, I didn't think that applied to men. I I honestly didn't think about that. I would have thought, like, oh, yeah. It's fine. But I'm like, actually, yeah. It's a little yeah. I guess, like, if I'm insecure about my body, and it's a conversation we should have. And I was like, no.

Jackson Tozer:

I'm fine with that. She goes, great. Alright. Let's move it on. Is there anything you wanna talk about? It's just this thing of I also had to wear, I don't know what I think they call it a modesty sock. I call it a cock sock. It's essentially you put all your junk in a flesh colored pouch and you essentially look naked. Yeah.

Jackson Tozer:

And that was really uncomfortable. Like, it's a very vulnerable thing as someone who's a large dude who's not super confident in his body, but it it was good to have a conversation about instead of just being expected to

Freya Graf:

do it.

Jackson Tozer:

And so that is a really fantastic thing that our industry now has.

Freya Graf:

I've actually been reaching out to a couple of intimacy coordinators because I want to interview someone. Yeah.

Jackson Tozer:

Yeah. Yep. And they and the best way Mikaela Mikaela described it, she goes, it just takes assumption off the table. Yeah. That's all it is. Yeah. We're not gonna assume they're comfortable doing that. And even with anything intimacy physically in scenes, it's where's okay to touch, where's not okay.

Jackson Tozer:

Mhmm. Because a lot of, you know, historically, like, a lot of men in a scene will be doing a sex scene, and they'll just start grabbing parts because they're in the moment. They go, it's acting wrong. I'm in the moment. I'm I'm just gonna kiss her during this scene and say, well, she might not want that. She historically probably doesn't want that. And it's just really important to have the conversation. So I think that's a great that's a great role.

Jackson Tozer:

Rejection. Rejection. I I've been facing it my my whole life. Like, I I know I present as this charming, handsome Oh, yeah. Womanizer. But I was always, Megan, there's one other mate. I kinda wanna say his name, but he knows who he is. We were famous in Portland for being friend zoned.

Jackson Tozer:

Oh. We were always friend zoned. And, when I was younger, I saw it as like a weakness, but I actually think it's quite a compliment because you felt you made women feel safe enough. Yeah. But so many times as a teenager, you're at a house party and you've got a woman, like a close friend who you've got a massive crush on

Freya Graf:

Mhmm.

Jackson Tozer:

Crying on your shoulder because some dude hooked up with another girl. Yeah. Bad boy. It was always a bad boy hooked up with another girl, and she's crying. She's like, why can't I find someone like you? I'm like, I don't know. I don't know where this man who's exactly like me is. Maybe he's right here in front of you the whole time. And I I I kind of got accustomed to being rejected, a lot through that.

Jackson Tozer:

And Do you think

Freya Graf:

that prepared you for the rejection in acting?

Jackson Tozer:

Probably. Probably. I mean A

Freya Graf:

little bit maybe.

Jackson Tozer:

Yeah. It's a different type of rejection because what I actually learned through acting was yeah. It's it's fucking hard. Right? Like, you go through let's say you're auditioning once a week. You're essentially not just going for an acting role, you're going for a job. Right? It's like job interviews. You're going for a job interview every week, but this job could change your life. And being told every week, no, you didn't get that thing, it it beats you down.

Jackson Tozer:

Like, it's a constant beating. And I I developed tactics throughout my career. The first few years were really hard because you put everything on it. You're like, oh my god. If I get on this, it's gonna change my life. I'm gonna get paid this. I'm gonna be on TV. I'm gonna blah blah blah.

Jackson Tozer:

And then you don't get it. You've almost already celebrated that in your head, and then you don't get it, and you're like, oh, that that defeats me. And you feel worthless, and you turn on yourself. The first tactic I learned was the second I leave the audition room, take all of the work, all of the thoughts, all of the effort, the time, the hours, the unpaid work that I've put into this, let it go. There is nothing I can do between now and when they make the decision that will change the outcome. I have to let it go and move on to the next one. So for a while there, if I booked a job, it was more like, oh, I forgot I even went for that. That's a bonus rather than than it's like if you're nominated for an award and you don't get it, you you you're upset.

Jackson Tozer:

It's like

Freya Graf:

Yep.

Jackson Tozer:

But you haven't lost anything.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. Yeah.

Jackson Tozer:

If you win it, you've won something. If you if you don't get it, you haven't lost. But what I've learned throughout the years now is that, honestly, it actually has nothing to do with you. There's so many times in my career where I've lost work because of my look. My, social media presence was one, you know, not being a big enough name. Yeah. And it actually had nothing to do with me being an actor. Gen not not gender, ethnicity, you know.

Jackson Tozer:

Yeah. There's so many factors that are out of my control that will stop me from or prevent me from getting the role. And it's it's actually not as personal as you think it is.

Freya Graf:

Yep. Yeah.

Jackson Tozer:

And but that has taken quite literally thirteen years of constant beatings to to sort of get a grip on. And to be honest, it does still hurt. Yeah. Even now, which you I've spoken to you about a role I've gone for recently that could have completely not just changed my life but set me up forever Mhmm. And I didn't get it. And I was very proud of how easily I could move on from that, but it hurts more because of how bigger the opportunities are now. You know, it's not like, oh, I could have been in this short film. It's like, no, this would have completely reshaped my entire life.

Jackson Tozer:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So it is hard to to deal with that rejection.

Freya Graf:

It's higher stakes. It's getting higher and higher stakes the more famous you

Jackson Tozer:

get. Absolutely.

Freya Graf:

And the bigger roles you're going for. Something that, sorry.

Jackson Tozer:

No. No. I was just gonna say if you apply it to the dating world as well, a great portion of the time, it might not actually have anything to do with you.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. Well, that kind of segues into a thought I just had that I wanted to probably unpack in real time. I don't know how to sort of arrange my thoughts on this, but there's something around so you got friend zoned heaps. Right?

Jackson Tozer:

Heaps. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Freya Graf:

And the kinds of like, I I would be blaming for that. I would probably be blaming the film industry for just only ever casting these, like, Chris Hemsworth fucking heartthrobs as the main character that gets the girl. And then, like, I imagine, like, just some of the roles that I know that you've done, they're not that, like, you know, lead character heartthrobs. They're the funny friends

Jackson Tozer:

Yeah.

Freya Graf:

They're comic relief. It's like, so do you feel like

Jackson Tozer:

The Duff, they call it. The designated ugly fat friend.

Freya Graf:

Oh my god. You get you I got the Duff. I got

Jackson Tozer:

the Duff.

Freya Graf:

The Duff. So like that, getting these roles as the Duff, that's like one surely could be a bit of a knock to the old self esteem.

Jackson Tozer:

A %.

Freya Graf:

Which then in the dating world, you'd just be literally thinking like, oh my god, I'm the Duff. Like Yeah. No wonder I get friend zoned. And then also like the way that roles are cast and the the figures we see on screens really shapes what we see as desirable or attractive or cool or whatever. And so that sets a pretty impossible standard or expectation that a lot of women who grew up watching these films kind of set their sights on.

Jackson Tozer:

Mhmm.

Freya Graf:

And, like, I don't know if there's a question in this, but, like, how the fuck do you, like like, I guess, integrate this knowledge of, like, oh, I'm the duff or the roles that I'm getting cast for are, you know, never the

Jackson Tozer:

I know you're the

Freya Graf:

leading man role or whatever. You know?

Jackson Tozer:

It's knowing what what value you do have in yourself.

Freya Graf:

Mhmm.

Jackson Tozer:

And I I've I see it now with the partner that I that that I have. She makes me feel and realize and understand that support is so much more powerful than a six pack. Yeah. Like, emotional support and for the first And maturity. Maturity. And for the fur the start of our relationship, it was a little, there was a little bit of like, I'm not sure if you're real type thing like I've never been treated like this. Why does someone why are you checking in with me? Why are you listening to me? Like because sadly for a lot of women they're not they haven't experienced that and Yeah. You know, I think that's why I was friends zoned a lot.

Jackson Tozer:

The reason she's crying on my shoulder at the party is because I'm listening to her, and I'm comforting her. And it always was so confusing because society was trying to tell me to be the bad boy. You treat a woman like crap and she'll come back to you. It's like, that's not it doesn't feel good in me to do that. And, you know, and I'm not I'm not a saint, not an angel. There's certainly been times where I have done that. I have treated women poorly, whether it be intentional or not. And as I said, these are lessons that you have to learn throughout your life and mistakes you make in order to be grow and be a better person.

Jackson Tozer:

And that level of ownership of your own mistakes is is is really important. But I I think I think rom coms in in particular might be more dangerous than people realize.

Freya Graf:

Yep.

Jackson Tozer:

And it's what prevented me from even entering the dating world for so many years because nothing ever lived up to the fairy tale that you're promised from a a rom com. Yep. That's not how life works. It's a fabricated story, and a lot of people put that expectation. And you'd be in a relationship and you go, oh, it's not like it is in that movie. Like, I haven't I'm not my heart's not fluttering every day. And good. Well, that's not what life is.

Jackson Tozer:

It's not gonna be that. There's gonna be struggles and Mhmm. There's gonna be challenges. It's not all gonna be perfect. And I do think that, you know, a lot of the characters I have played are actually kind of the opposite of me. Like, you think Deadlock, even mister in between. I'm playing I like I love playing the toxic masculine roles because I know these people. I've grown up, but, like, it's it's almost it's It's a fun outlet.

Jackson Tozer:

Fun outlet to to really, you know, live in that space for a little bit. I feel yuck after set. I do go home feeling a bit weird, and feeling a bit gross. I know Leonardo DiCaprio spoke about it when he did Django Unchained and how often he was saying the n word, and he he is spoke about how uncomfortable that made him feel. Wow. And Samuel L. Jackson just pulled him into shape. He was like, mate, we hear that word every day, get over it type of thing.

Jackson Tozer:

But it is, yeah. Yeah. Playing like, I I see briefs every now and then. We're like, oh, yeah. They're doing a new show. They're looking for a guy mid to late thirties, early forties, fat, this thing or this thing. It's like the description, and your ad is like, yeah. We think you'd be perfect for it.

Jackson Tozer:

And you go Aw. Yeah. Thanks.

Freya Graf:

Excuse this quick interruption. I'm shamelessly seeking reviews and five star ratings for the potty because as I'm sure you've noticed by now, it's pretty fab. And the more people who get to hear it, the more people I can help with it. Reviews and ratings actually do make a big difference to this little independent podcaster, and it's really easy to just quickly show your support by taking that simple act of either leaving five stars for the show on Spotify or even better, writing a written review and leaving five stars over on Apple Podcasts. Or if you're a real overachiever, you can do them both. That would be mad. If you're writing a review though, just be sure to use g rated words because despite the fact that this is a podcast about sexuality, words like sex can be censored and your review won't make it through the gates. Lame.

Freya Graf:

Anyway, I would personally recommend doing that right now while you remember just to get on top of it and let me know you're with me on this journey. Thanks, gang. Enjoy the rest of the epi. You just got I guess that you just gotta get so real and raw about it. It's being

Jackson Tozer:

it is being real. Right? It is being real. And it's just Objectively?

Freya Graf:

That's when it doesn't need to be a bad thing. It's only seen as a fucking negative thing, you know, when we're way too swayed and influenced by what we see on screens, beauty standards and whatever.

Jackson Tozer:

And it does work both ways. You know, you look at someone like Lizzo who really was a a real trailblazer for, like, being loving yourself. Yeah. And especially with body standards. And I I don't I reject the I reject the idea to a degree where people say, like, oh, it's okay for men to be large. No. I definitely have felt a lot of shame and a lot of, you know, I've I've I won't name names or anything like that, but I do know there's been productions I've been on where I've been shamed for my weight. I've had directors tell me that I remember doing commercial and directors like, you have to put a let's get a pillow in here for him.

Jackson Tozer:

Put a I was like, why? He goes, oh, when you sit down, your your shirt buttons out and you look really fat on the screen. It doesn't look doesn't look good, doesn't look healthy. And saying that in front of, like, a hundred people.

Freya Graf:

Oh.

Jackson Tozer:

And so the notion that that only happens to females is what I'm rejecting. I do say it does go both ways. And I I've experienced it on many occasions on set. Mhmm. In the middle of a scene, someone calls me a a fat cunt or something like that. And you go, oh, it's improv. That's fine. And I was like, yeah.

Jackson Tozer:

It did hurt me a bit though, but you just you you process it. You get on. Yeah. Yeah. But it's knowing what what you do bring to the table. Right? Like, in my relationship, I'm always gonna be, as every single human is, gonna be dealing with your body issues. But it's what you feel on the inside. Being validated for being comforting, for being there, for being supportive, for being caring, for being loving, for being funny.

Jackson Tozer:

Yep. Honestly, I do think all that rejection, all that, you know, body issues that led to me being funny, finding a new way to stand out, having a new value.

Freya Graf:

Did did, like, being in this industry really impact your body image and and sort of has that been a big challenge being in an industry that's so fixated on books?

Jackson Tozer:

Yes. Again, I do wanna stress, I could never imagine how much harder it is for women in that circumstance. I remember setting my measurements through to a wardrobe lady once and she called up. She's like, are you sure these are right? I'm like, yeah, they're my measurements. She goes, are you sure? Because they're really big. I'm like, yeah, I'm quite a large dude. And, you know, I I just think with women it's even more so. You know, you've got to be a certain look.

Jackson Tozer:

You've got to be a certain Yep. Shape. Yeah. The pressure must be so much harder on them.

Freya Graf:

Definitely dude. Hey, I wanna do the segment TMI.

Jackson Tozer:

Yeah.

Freya Graf:

Do you have a TMI story that you can share with us? And I know that before you were like, oh, I've got a story and I was like, is it

Jackson Tozer:

Is it about your banjo?

Freya Graf:

Is it about is it about snapping your banjo string because everyone has a story like that and you're like, oh, damn. Yeah. But I've had that sent in like 50 times, I reckon. It seems to be a rite of passage for men.

Jackson Tozer:

It's so weird because I remember when it did happen though, that the the lady I was sleeping with, it was caused by her. She she had pulled my foreskin down way too hard.

Freya Graf:

Oh, with her hand?

Jackson Tozer:

With her hand.

Freya Graf:

Oh.

Jackson Tozer:

And then we started intercourse and there was blood everywhere. And the poor, like, in in oh, it's the poor woman. She thought she'd had her period, so she took all the blame for it. Mhmm. Mhmm. And then I got into the shower. I'm like, ow. Ow.

Jackson Tozer:

And I noticed what happened. I'm so lucky to have a mom who's a nurse. I call her no matter what. Like, I speak to mom and I called her. I was like, hey, these things happen. TMI I don't know. Look, I think there's like I think there's a lot of embarrassment that comes with bodies in general. I currently have what I think is a hemorrhoid.

Freya Graf:

Okay. Is this your first hemorrhoid?

Jackson Tozer:

Yeah. Yeah. First. I thought it was a polyp. Okay. I tell you what, Google can be a great thing, but it can also be a

Freya Graf:

horrible thing. Dangerous.

Jackson Tozer:

Because I googled it and turns out I've got rectal cancer. Fuck. So I'm not entirely sure what's going on.

Freya Graf:

Shit. You're dead, man.

Jackson Tozer:

Yesterday, I had to take a Gaviscon for my heartburn and put hemorrhoid cream on my asshole. I was like, oh, I'm in my thirties now.

Freya Graf:

That's humbling. Yeah.

Jackson Tozer:

I was like instead of and I was like said to my partner, I was like, I should go to the doc. Like, I'm a bit worried. I don't wanna go to the doctor. I'm a bit uncomfortable about it. It's like, why? It's like, it's embarrassing, but why is it embarrassing? It's fucking healthy. It's same with, like, men getting prostate checks. Yeah. You know? I think a previous generation was like, oh, that's that's gay.

Freya Graf:

That's gay?

Jackson Tozer:

It's gay. Okay.

Freya Graf:

You know? It's weird

Jackson Tozer:

to get a finger up your ass. Whereas this generation, I'm like, I think it's weird if you haven't had a finger up your ass at this point, you know. I think it's, worth a try. But I I've got a really good doctor who's got a great he's got a great sense of humor. My dad, very gratefully has beaten prostate cancer twice.

Freya Graf:

Oh, wow. And

Jackson Tozer:

when he was diagnosed the first time, I remember going to, the week before I had a lump on my testicle looked at. Turns out it wasn't a lump. I was a stoner at the time and just had created this scenario. I was like, that's Other. What's that? What's that?

Freya Graf:

Totally paranoid.

Jackson Tozer:

And then a week later, I went in to get checked for a prostate check. And I'm in my early thirties, so, not really the time to get checked. And he said, let me get this straight. Last time you were here, you wanted me to play with your balls. Now you want my finger in your eyes.

Freya Graf:

Oh my god. And that is a

Jackson Tozer:

prime example of being able to use comedy to deal with something that's difficult. And I was like, oh, you're gonna be my doctor for a

Freya Graf:

long time with that sense of humor.

Jackson Tozer:

So yeah, I'd say too much information is the fact that, after this podcast, I'm gonna have to go put some cream on my bums.

Freya Graf:

On your Hemi.

Jackson Tozer:

On my Hemi.

Freya Graf:

Did you get your partner to do it? Job?

Jackson Tozer:

She did. She did. She put on the first time. Bless. And then I was like I I noticed my voice when I'm like, that's enough. That's enough. That's enough. Because I think she was really enjoying that.

Jackson Tozer:

And then I said to her afterwards, I was like, you know what? This is actually a really lovely space in our relationship that I'm comfortable enough for you to do that. Totally.

Freya Graf:

And

Jackson Tozer:

be vulnerable enough to do that. Yeah. You know? And and and she she has a child herself, so it did feel like I was like this big baby lying on my

Freya Graf:

back was

Jackson Tozer:

being taken care of.

Freya Graf:

Alright. Next question. Why are you so passionate about being a role model of healthy masculinity for others and how do you go about doing this day to day and in your career? You know?

Jackson Tozer:

I think it's important to be vulnerable to show others that it's okay to be vulnerable.

Freya Graf:

Mhmm.

Jackson Tozer:

Again, I can only speak from my own experiences. So I know I've said a lot on this podcast. I've used the phrase for men in particular Mhmm. Because that is the demographic that I'm trying to encourage and challenge. And we speak a lot about the wrongdoings of men historically. Now whether I've contributed to that or not, whether that be, an active decision I've made or not, it's not relevant. The fact is horrible things have happened because of men. And that's not to say horrible things have happened because of women.

Jackson Tozer:

I'm just specifying here that if men don't have a healthy role model, they're gonna find unhealthy role models. Mhmm. And they're gonna think that's how their life should be or they need to act that way to be that certain thing. There's a huge I'm not a political person, but there is a huge danger with someone like Trump being in power. Yeah. The inability to own your mistakes or to take accountability and responsibility is something that I think is really dangerously being subconsciously taught to young men.

Freya Graf:

Yes. Yes. Yeah. Don't accept or don't admit fault or flaws or weakness. Yeah.

Jackson Tozer:

There is a narcissism that comes with it. And

Freya Graf:

And gaslighting.

Jackson Tozer:

Because if

Freya Graf:

you stand your ground, but you actually are wrong, then you're making everyone else feel like fucking crazy.

Jackson Tozer:

Yeah. Agreed. Agreed. And and I think everything I say, like, it can apply both ways. Right? You know, I I even saw a video on Instagram this morning while I was taking my poo, because I had to, you know, just get it out before I put the cream on. And it was like a man showing evidence to his partner that she cheated on him. Here's the footage. And she immediately, without taking responsibility, was like, why are you spying on me? Why'd you set a camera up? It's like, you took no responsibility for your actions, then you're actually the one in the wrong.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. Everyone's capable of it

Jackson Tozer:

for sure. Absolutely. And I just think growing up, I couldn't necessarily think of some really positive, male role models in in that regard. They were in my personal life for sure. I think being in position of someone who is on television and, as much as I actively don't want to be a part of the limelight, outside of it, I want to be an artist and a performer. I don't want to be a celebrity. But if anyone's looking up to you in any way, I think you need to set a good example. Now you don't have to be in any way famous.

Jackson Tozer:

You could be a teacher at a school. What you do. You could be, an uncle, a neighbor.

Freya Graf:

Yep.

Jackson Tozer:

Since having nieces and nephews, I really it really changed in me how my actions affect others. And I think it's incredibly important to always set the best example for them because it shows them a different way of living and it shows them that you have learned from mistakes that you've made. Again, I don't think it's incredibly healthy to spend too much time beating yourself up for mistakes you've made. It's more important to reflect on them and find ways to grow from them.

Freya Graf:

Totally.

Jackson Tozer:

And I think in a generation of technology with the amount of different people that you can be influenced by, that's why I really hate the idea of influencers as well. Mhmm. Even the word influencer Mhmm. Is disgusting. It's like, really, what a lot of you are doing is you're half naked and you're dancing. What are you influencing? Someone from my hometown, Chloe Hayden, who's a fantastic actress, she is autistic and is a huge advocate for autism awareness. She's an influencer in the best possible way. She's educational.

Jackson Tozer:

She encourages others to be who they want to be and who they are, and there is no shame that comes with it. So some something like that is real she's a really important role model for young women, and even men. And she's just a great example of, you know, she has autism. Sorry. She is autistic. I think it's important to specify because autism is not a disease. It's something you are. And she sets an example of, like, look what you can accomplish.

Jackson Tozer:

Don't let people tell you that you can't do this thing. Because I grew up being told I can't be an actor. It's not a it's not achievable. Since being an actor and having success in film and TV, it's it warms my heart how many people from Portland have actually reached out to ask for guidance.

Freya Graf:

How do

Jackson Tozer:

you get into this? Chloe was one. I remember speaking a lot with Chloe's mum in particular because she was quite young at the time, asking me questions about how I got into it.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. How did

Jackson Tozer:

I do it? And it's just that really humbling feeling of, like, oh, wow. You know, I've broken some ground here, and I can send the elevator back down to the next person so that they can come up. And in Khloe's circumstance, she's done she's probably faced more adversity than I could ever imagine. Mhmm. And she's still able to give back and be a good role model.

Freya Graf:

And, like, yeah, the more famous you become, whether you like it or not, the more influence you are going to have. Like, I'm curious, like, how can you, as a man, create more spaces for authenticity and vulnerability for other men, like, through the way that you be and you lead and you talk? Like, are there wet things that you kinda consciously do now to try to role model that and create or or, like, even if you have suggestions for other men to help create spaces in their, like, personal lives Mhmm. Like, do you have any ideas around how to normalize authenticity and vulnerability Yeah. Among

Jackson Tozer:

It's doing what we're doing now. It's talking. It's it's it's talking about it. When I did the Imperfects, the the the amount of messages I received from that was so humbling and overwhelming, of course. I was getting fifty, sixty essays a day from people I didn't know about how telling me their own story, and it became very overwhelming because a lot of them were seeking help from me. I'm not a mental health professional. I'm I'm not in any way, able to offer that help, but there is support out there. But I do think, as a stress to everyone who I was had the capability to reply to, that the fact that you were willing to talk to me about it or open up about it is the first step.

Jackson Tozer:

Yeah. It's finding people within your life who you can talk to, not to not necessarily go here's my problem, you solve it. But by talking about it is actively putting the steps in to solve the problem.

Freya Graf:

Mhmm.

Jackson Tozer:

By ignoring a problem, it will never go away. The analogy I like to use, which I which I came up with and used a lot in my show, my live show, was that you look at your problems or issues in life like like the junk on your bedroom floor or your clothes, you know. Your floor's covered in crap. You gotta clean it up. You look at it as a whole mess and you go, this is too much. I can't handle this. What a lot of people do is they grab all that junk and they'll just put it in a box, put it in the cupboard, just throw it in there. That's not the problem solved that's the problem hidden the only way to deal with it is one item of clothing at a time.

Jackson Tozer:

Mhmm. I'm gonna fold this shirt I'm gonna fold these pants and put these pants away.

Freya Graf:

Mhmm.

Jackson Tozer:

Here's one sock where's the other sock? Fuck. I can't find it. I'm losing my mind. I don't know what I'm gonna do. You know what? Deal with that one later. The more of the other stuff you deal with,

Freya Graf:

the easier that it'll be to

Jackson Tozer:

find that other sock. One thing at a time, not looking at an end goal, but looking at an isolated thing. I don't look what's down the road. I look at the next step that I have to take. Yeah. And I think the importance of being a role model and and what it is to do is to just show people that it is okay to not be okay. Find a friendship group. Have a group chat.

Jackson Tozer:

Every now and then, just check-in. How are you guys doing? Or be the leader. Yeah. Just do something vulnerable.

Freya Graf:

That's it. It's like I I'll often give this as homework to clients, and it applies to mental health as well as sexuality. But often, you know, people sort of say, oh, just I don't have anyone to talk to about this stuff. Mhmm. It's not really talked about in my family. It's not really talked about among my friends. And I'm like, cool. I get why that is, but also that doesn't have to be the case.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. Like, actually people are fanging for an opportunity to talk about this stuff and to find safe spaces Mhmm. To discuss it and normalize it. And maybe it feels vulnerable and scary, but, like, you could be the first one to role model that. And then that will give everyone else permission. And all of a sudden, you've created a culture within your group or within a specific friendship where it's now okay to talk about sexuality, to talk about mental health, to talk about how you're

Jackson Tozer:

really going,

Freya Graf:

and the fact that you might not be fully okay. Yeah. And that gives everyone else, yeah, a bit of a permission slip. It creates a whole different vibe. It normalizes it. And then all of a sudden, everyone's super grateful for this opportunity to get to know one another better and on a deeper level. You're feeling more connected. You're feeling more nourished from your friendships, more supported, and you're feeling like you can be fully yourself

Jackson Tozer:

Yeah.

Freya Graf:

And be loved in that and seen in that and acknowledged and and be able to, like, be honest on a whole other level. And I think, like, it can be hard to be the first person, but something that you do really well, the Imperfects podcast was the perfect example of how people respond to that.

Jackson Tozer:

Mhmm.

Freya Graf:

And I do this as well, is I try to really, like, role model it and walk the walk so that other people go, oh, oh, okay. Well, I guess it's okay for me to also do that then. Mhmm. Like, that's just set the precedent, you know? Yeah. And you can be that person in your group or with with a friendship. Like, obviously, if people are just not safe spaces and you can really feel that, don't bother. But I would start questioning the people you surround yourself with. And you don't have to go full gung ho straight away.

Freya Graf:

You you can dip your toe in. You can just, like, leave a couple of breadcrumbs or plant a couple of seeds and see if people nibble, see how they start responding if you just, like, drop it down one little, like, minuscule layer of realness at a time. And if they're responding positively, then awesome. Keep that trend going.

Jackson Tozer:

And you know, like, I agree with everything you said. I think a huge thing for myself and my friendship group was R U Okay Day came up. And on a group chat, I just jumped on. And as I said, I've been friends with these guys for more than half of my life. And I just went, god, I'm not okay. And just told them. And then what came from that was a message of support and then each of them listed something that they weren't dealing with well. And I think you find it's a domino effect.

Jackson Tozer:

Right? If you're in an in a group environment and someone's being vulnerable, it will bring out the vulnerability in you. And you talk about a lot of people who are too scared to bring it up. You might be in a group of, let's say, six people who all want to talk about their feelings, but no one's willing to do it. Be that person.

Freya Graf:

That's why it's brave.

Jackson Tozer:

It's brave. Be that person. Also, if you think someone's struggling, just check-in. You know, I think one of the biggest tragedies my brother in particular talks about a friend of his who, took his own life. He slowly come to terms with the fact that there was nothing he could do to help, but he is constantly living in regret about Yeah. I I I wish I could have been there for him. Mhmm.

Freya Graf:

Why

Jackson Tozer:

didn't I call him? Why didn't I send him a message? And I think you start warping reality and you go, I I was gonna call him that day, but I didn't. And then you feel the guilt of that. And I think checking in, you know, when I was at the worst of my drug addiction, I was yearning for help, but I just did not have the courage to ask for it. Sometimes it's better to offer a hand than be asked for one. Yep. And I think it's really important to check-in with people. And it could be as easy as just checking in.

Freya Graf:

And asking that follow-up question. I think, like, there was something that, was highlighted. I can't remember what organization did, but the last time there was an are you okay day, they were like, especially with men, it's really important to ask more than just are you okay? Yeah. Fine. Okay. Cool.

Jackson Tozer:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Freya Graf:

Fine. No. But, like, actually. Like, how are you actually going? And then, you know, especially if you can tell there's something there, but they're not really able to speak it, role model it for yourself. Be like, oh, okay. Well, I'm glad you're doing well, but, like, I've got this stuff going on. And then it's like, oh, okay. That's what we're doing.

Freya Graf:

Cool.

Jackson Tozer:

Yeah. And it could be a different wording of the question. Instead of are you okay? It's like, just tell me what's going on in your life. Yeah. And they might get to that point instead of being hit with a confronting question straight out of the gate. Yeah. You start talking about this, this, and that. And to be honest, actually, can I talk to you about this thing? You know?

Freya Graf:

Yep. Absolutely. Back to, like, expectations placed on men in, like, a sexuality space Mhmm. What are you what have you got to say around, like, the the sort of pressure and expectation on men in the bedroom and in the dating world that you think are kinda bullshit that you're sort of also trying to debunk and, like, shift the narrative around personally?

Jackson Tozer:

Yeah. I think it kind of actually a little bit goes into the question about poor sex education. During, you know, I was undiagnosed ADHD up until I was in my early thirties. I was battling drug addiction. So to give you a quick breakdown of that, that means that my brain was not getting dopamine.

Freya Graf:

Mhmm.

Jackson Tozer:

ADHD brains struggle to get dopamine. They don't produce as much of the chemical that makes you feel joy and happiness. So I was finding quick fixes for that. Food being a huge one for me. But the other one being porn. So there was daily, I was masturbating to porn not for any sexual gratification whatsoever, but just for the dopamine of it. Yeah. And so by consuming that amount of porn and almost rewire wiring my brain to be like sex wasn't this thing of intimacy or connection.

Jackson Tozer:

It was just to get this chemical feeling or the the end result of it. And I think taking something like that into the bedroom is that you if you watch if you're consuming so much porn like that, I think you're getting like rom coms, you're getting the wrong example of what a positive healthy sexual relationship is. And there was a lot of times in the bedroom where if the woman wasn't reacting the way that she does on porn, then I'm not doing a good job. I have a deep insecurity about premature ejaculation. You know, if you're not lasting more than a minute, then something's wrong with you. Whereas it's a legitimate thing that that men will go through. Mhmm. Some women find it a compliment, funnily enough.

Jackson Tozer:

Like, oh, wow. He's really attracted to me. And there's an embarrassment and even having conversations with my partner about, like, if I have finished first, then I feel guilt that I haven't been able to finish her. And to understand that it's not about the finishing part of it. It's about the connection and the journey of it. And to to say that just because that person, whether that be you as the man or her as the woman, haven't finished, that doesn't mean that it wasn't a pleasurable experience. And I think there's a lot of stigma around that. Again, which is why I think it's amazing what you do having such open conversations about sex.

Jackson Tozer:

It goes into mental health as well. Right? Yeah. Being vulnerable. It's a oh, it's a taboo subject. You're all allowed to talk about it.

Freya Graf:

Hey. Me again. If you'd like to support the potty and you've already given it five stars on whatever platform you're listening on, I wanna mention that you can buy some really dope merch from the website and get yourself a labia lounge tote, tea, togs. Yep. You heard that right. I even have labia lounge bathers. Or a cute fanny pack if that'd blow your hair back. So, if fashion isn't your passion though, you can donate to my buy me a coffee donation page, which is actually called buy me a soy chai latte because I'll be the first to admit, I'm a bit of a Melbourne cafe tosser like that.

Freya Graf:

And, yes, that is my coffee order. You can do a one stop donation or an ongoing membership and sponsor me for as little as 3 fat ones a month. And I also offer one on one coaching and online courses that'll help you level up your sex life and relationship with yourself and others in a really big way. So every bit helps cause it ain't cheap to put out a sweet podcast, into the world every week out of my own pocket. So I will be undyingly grateful if you support me and my biz financially in any of these ways. And if you like, I'll even give you a mental BJ with my mind from the lounge itself. Saucy. And, I'll pop the links in the show notes.

Freya Graf:

Thank you. Later.

Jackson Tozer:

It's a taboo subject where it's ridiculous because we're all here because of sex. We well, you know, obviously, in the case of, like, IVF, etcetera, but it is something majority of humans do, and we don't talk about it. As a man in particular, I do think the biggest stigmas that I've had to deal with is penis size Mhmm. And, a premature ejaculation, which is two things that are completely out of my control. So why am I being self conscious about something that I have zero control over? And I think it's a case of being in a healthy relationship with open communication that you can deal with and confront and talk about those sort of issues.

Freya Graf:

Big time. The sex educator in me wants to just insert, like, premature ejaculation. You can, over time, definitely control that and, like, learn to navigate that. Often, it just does feel completely out of your control, but that's something I work with a lot of men around because they want to, you know, be able to have a bit more mastery and control over that. But I know exactly where you're going right now.

Jackson Tozer:

At least the masculine thing, I'm gonna fuck you all night long. It's like, no. I'm I'm gonna do it for a couple minutes, and then we get a good night night shut eye. But it's it's like I also I also get stage fright at a urinal. Right? Which is another thing that is so common amongst men. They don't talk about it. Yeah. I could be busting for a pee.

Jackson Tozer:

This is why I don't go to the footy. But I go there and then I'm at the urinal and it's not even it has nothing to do with, my penis or or the uncomfortableness. It's I've tricked my brain. I've told my brain it's not gonna happen.

Freya Graf:

Yep.

Jackson Tozer:

And it's the same with premature ejaculation. My circumstance was always like, you're gonna come early, and it's gonna be awkward. And then once you've said that you've convinced yourself that's

Freya Graf:

gonna happen. Absolutely. It's so psychological. Yeah. Yep.

Jackson Tozer:

And, you know, now being in a healthy sexual relationship, it's not something that ever comes up. It's not something that's an issue anymore because I'm relaxed and I'm comfortable with this person Yep. And I'm not telling myself this thing's gonna happen.

Freya Graf:

Yep. And also because ejaculation is a function of the sympathetic nervous system. So often if there's anxiety, performance anxiety, there's overthinking, there's like, oh my god, it's gonna happen. You're hyper focused on that, creating a sort of stress response in the body, that causes you to ejaculate to get out of that really stressful, uncomfortable situation where you're like, oh my god, oh my god. So it's just yeah. We shoot ourselves in the foot by putting too much pressure and expectation on that because then that basically creates the conditions where premature ejaculation's more likely to happen. And even the language around it, like, as a sex coach, we don't well, I and a lot of my colleagues that work with men don't even really say premature ejaculation or erectile dysfunction. It's like erectile challenges and coming before you want to come.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. It's not like it's actually premature. Like, there's no, like, this is okay and this is not okay and you have to last this amount of time for it to be quote unquote normal. It's like, okay, are you, like, unsatisfied and it's impacting you that you're coming as quickly as you are? Mhmm. And you wanna do something about it? Cool. We can do that. But, like, the pathologization of male sexuality and being, like, you have a pathology, you have premature ejaculation, and you need Viagra or this, the like, that I have a real issue with.

Jackson Tozer:

Yeah.

Freya Graf:

Because it is so psychological. And if you're feeling really comfortable and safe, often, for a lot of people who have experienced coming too quickly, for their liking, that just disappears because all of a sudden they're not in fight or flight. They're not having you know, they're not needing to have this, like, sympathetic response of, like, a quick quick release because they feel safe enough to just dwell in that space. And they're comfortable, and they, like, can relax and just be present. And then their presence with their partner and their sensations is far outweighing the sort of, like, stress response and the overthinking that comes with, like, oh my god. I'm gonna jizz too quickly. Fuck. I'm a not a man.

Freya Graf:

Like, what I'm not gonna please my partner. What's she gonna think about me? So, yeah, I love what you said about that. Quick question. Do men like, so you mentioned urinals. Do men look at each other's dicks standing at the urinal? Is that why you get stage fright or you just

Jackson Tozer:

I have no idea. Do you have any evidence? No. No. And it's weird. And it's like, what what I would instinctively do is get my phone out to distract my brain from what's going on, but then realizing that's even creepier to get my phone out of the urinal. No. I I I honestly don't know what it is. I don't know.

Jackson Tozer:

But if I go into a cubicle, it's fine. Yeah. Yeah. It's so fine. And my brother, who very hilariously every time we're at the footy game or something, he will yell out. He'll make he'll draw attention to it. If I'm in the urine, he goes, why are you in there, Jackson? Can't you pee at the urine

Freya Graf:

or something? I'm like, fuck.

Jackson Tozer:

It's just it's a psychological block. Right?

Freya Graf:

Yeah. Yeah. Totally.

Jackson Tozer:

And it's so weird. If no one's in there pee fine, someone walks in you like, oh. I get it. What is that? Why am I blocking it? You know, it's just,

Freya Graf:

I totally get it.

Jackson Tozer:

And I generally don't think it has anything to do with anything else but a psychological block.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. Yeah. I've got like I think we'll wrap up soon with, like, one particular question. But I wouldn't mind chucking the video on for in case some gold comes out because it sort of sums up everything we're trying to talk about. I was I was curious. I mean, if if it's just a really quick not that it can be a quick answer, but there was something that we didn't touch on that I'm curious about to see if you have any thoughts on, and then I've got, like, a final Yeah. Wrap a bow on it question. But little quick one, like do you have any theories on why comedians are so notorious for being depressed?

Jackson Tozer:

Yeah. Comedy comes from deep pain. Mhmm. Yeah. Comedy comes from from really deep pain. It's, it's a defense mechanism.

Freya Graf:

Okay.

Jackson Tozer:

You know?

Freya Graf:

And if you if you can't laugh, you cry. So you just get used to trying to find funny things about tragedy or something like that?

Jackson Tozer:

Quite possibly. Yeah. I mean, it's, as I said, I'm not always only gonna speak from my own experience. I don't know the actual psychological answer to it, but you do tend to find some of the funniest people are actually deeply hurt. Yeah. Prime example is when Robin Williams, ended his own life. It was like people go, David Letterman. This he broke my heart.

Jackson Tozer:

He was he went on he still went on and did his show that night. He and Robin were apparently very close friends, and he he gives this huge speech and at the end of it, he's choking up and he goes, I'm sorry. I didn't know you were hurting. And that that's, to me, a real summary of it. It's, it's a way of dealing with their pain. I use comedy a lot to deal with my emotions, to deal with my pain.

Freya Graf:

And it's socially acceptable, especially as a man. Not as socially acceptable to actually just be real about talking about struggling, but if you turn it into a joke, that's one way to have an outlet Yeah. And, like, share a part of that with other people without it being like, oh, you're a pussy, mate.

Jackson Tozer:

Yeah. It's because a laughter is a release of tension. Right? A laugh is genuinely that's why a a joke is structured so that a setup creates the tension and the punchline is your permission to release it. And I think with comedy, a lot of people can use it to to deal with their pain. I've always used comedy to deal with my pain, and almost it's weird because it's turning something bad into something good in certain circumstances.

Freya Graf:

But it

Jackson Tozer:

could also be quite unhealthy, I'm sure. Like, I'm sure you can, not take a subject seriously if you're joking about it too much. But you tend to find I think you'll probably see it in a lot of interactions with people. If they're doing something that's uncomfortable or or, you know, having a conflict in a conversation, they might actually laugh through it.

Freya Graf:

Yep.

Jackson Tozer:

Now, but, like, oh, but you said to me the other day that you wouldn't do

Freya Graf:

that, you know, and you did do that.

Jackson Tozer:

It's like, why are you laughing at that? You're actually upset.

Freya Graf:

Mhmm.

Jackson Tozer:

It's it's it's a it's a pure defense mechanism, I think.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. Yeah.

Jackson Tozer:

And there is a huge correlation. And, like, I mean, if you apply it logically to stand up comedians, you have like, the amount of how difficult that must be getting on stage five, six, seven nights a week Yeah. At, like, late hours in front of a crowd of people. It is incredibly, challenging. Like, if you tell a joke and no one laughs, you've failed. The amount of self hate that comes with that,

Freya Graf:

Yeah.

Jackson Tozer:

That is just and to hustle doing it like that. Like, after I did my live show, I I spoke to my agent. I'm like, keep getting the auditions for film and TV. As much as I loved that experience, I could never imagine having to to do that Yeah. Or, like, I was just exhausted. Mentally exhausted.

Freya Graf:

Oh my god. And at least with TV and film, if someone doesn't like it, you don't see

Jackson Tozer:

their reaction in real time. Exactly. Like, fuck me. When you talk about it. Like being asked to validate your entire life's work to your face. The only other people I can think of are hairdressers and even then you're lying, you're like, yep. It's good. Thank you.

Jackson Tozer:

You know? No one's like, how did I do? Tell me immediately. And it's not even answering your question. You're going off their response to it.

Freya Graf:

Like, do you know what?

Jackson Tozer:

You don't laugh. You're like, oh, fuck. Oh, fuck.

Freya Graf:

Yeah.

Jackson Tozer:

Self hatred. It's like a loop. Alright. Now I'll write a joke about self hate. That's why, what's the wording? The, self deprecating comedy Yeah. Is so easy to do Yeah. Because it goes back into the conversation about arrogance. It's like it's just easy to rip on yourself.

Freya Graf:

Yep. Yeah. And if you're already laughing at yourself, then it doesn't hurt as much if other people laugh at you because you've sort of already yeah. Ugh. Yeah. Anyway, before we wrap up, I'd love to just kind of encompass what we've been speaking about and ask you it's a big question. What does it mean to you to be a healthy man? Oh.

Jackson Tozer:

It's a very good question. I don't know. And my ability to say I don't know, I think is the answer. Is that right? I feel I feel like you know I'm not gonna sit here and lie and come up with some great answer as to what it is. I think being able to accept that maybe you're not in control of everything.

Freya Graf:

Maybe you don't know the answer to everything.

Jackson Tozer:

And that's okay.

Freya Graf:

And that's okay. Yeah. Then yeah. Oh, my god. Woah. You couldn't have, like, epitomized the essence of what we're trying to distill better. Mhmm. Like, this whole thing around the expectations on men to, like, be assertive, be strong, never admit weakness, never admit fault, know everything, lead the charge.

Freya Graf:

Like, that is so outrageously unrealistic to be able to be that all the time and it's cool to be able to do that when it's called for, if need be. But I think a way more applicable skill at least within like the realms of relationship probably not as like a CEO and that's why so many like real like hectic alpha gigachads are like at the top of this like wealth pyramid in corporate. But like in terms of relationships, which to me is the most important thing. Yeah. The the skill and the ability to just admit that you don't know. Yeah. What the fuck? Yeah. No.

Freya Graf:

Not enough people do that. No.

Jackson Tozer:

The arrogance to assume you know everything too is is

Freya Graf:

Oh, you have to pretend at least you know everything. You should see

Jackson Tozer:

embarrassment when I I had to call the RACV to change my tire for the first time. The dude's like, what? Don't you know how to do this? I'm like, no. Because I've never been shown. Why should I feel less of a man?

Freya Graf:

Yeah. It was ridiculous. I've been shown so many times. My dad used to get us to change tires all the time so that we would know how to do that.

Jackson Tozer:

Paying you a service.

Freya Graf:

But I can't remember. I fucking I do it so seldom that, like, I couldn't guarantee that I wouldn't fuck that up. Yeah.

Jackson Tozer:

I think it's so strong. It's like, again, going into, like, I need help. It's the same thing. I don't know what I'm doing. I need help. That's there's power there's so much power in that.

Freya Graf:

Yes. Yep. Strength in admitting that you don't know everything and that sometimes you need some help unlike the courage to accept help when, you know, to ask for it or and or accept it. That's beautiful. That's so beautiful because, like, yeah, that that is a healthy man, I reckon, that that can navigate those waters, without it having to mean something about his masculinity Mhmm. Or mean that he's less of a man or be ashamed or embarrassed about that. Like, that's

Jackson Tozer:

But that's me now. Right? So that's me coming off a journey of not Yeah.

Freya Graf:

Of course.

Jackson Tozer:

If you're feeling in any way, like, you you you are not that at the moment, it's a matter of taking a step back and just assessing and learning, being able to grow. You know, I've never I I was never in touch with my emotions. Therapy helped me Yeah. Dramatically in life. And, and I'm constantly growing. I'm still making mistakes. But as mum would always say, it's it's only a mistake if you make it twice. Otherwise, it's a lesson learned.

Jackson Tozer:

And I think that's really important. So to not be so hard on yourself, but have to have the ability to to admit fault and to learn and and grow. That's how you'll grow. Whatever it is you're feeling, just feel it. Dope. Dope.

Freya Graf:

Dope. Dope. Dope. Dope. Dope. Dope.

Jackson Tozer:

Could you also words for a marijuana, recovering marijuana aids?

Freya Graf:

Amazing. I've loved this chat. Thank you

Jackson Tozer:

for the chat, buddy. I appreciate it.

Freya Graf:

Is there anything else that you feel like we didn't cover and you wanna make sure you just leave the listeners with or are you pretty content with that?

Jackson Tozer:

Lifeline.

Freya Graf:

Mhmm.

Jackson Tozer:

Google Lifeline. If you need help, talk to someone. Yeah. They don't know who you are. There is no obligation. It is a completely safe space. If you're feeling like you're at the end of the line, just call that number. Yeah.

Jackson Tozer:

Beyond Blue. There are so many, resources out there that can help you. There is zero shame in it whatsoever.

Freya Graf:

And, you know, going back to what I was sort of talking about earlier with regards to practicing this skill, if it feels too hard or too high stakes to practice opening up to someone you know, maybe calling a number like that and practicing that skill, strengthening that muscle is a good place to start because A %. They don't know you and it's lower stakes.

Jackson Tozer:

Yes. I'll I'll quickly just say this last thing because it's it's important to me that there's somebody who I know very close to me, a male figure who went to therapy. I spoke to them afterwards and said how'd it go? Fucking useless. All I did was cry the whole time. I'm not going back. That was the point. It's not like if you go to the gym once, you don't leave for the six pack. You have to continually go to do the work.

Jackson Tozer:

The reason you cried the whole time is because there's a lot of stuff that you aren't doing.

Freya Graf:

There's a backlog.

Jackson Tozer:

When when Kya died, I went to therapy once. I did the exact thing. I cried the entire time. I called my mom and I screamed at her. I said, don't you ever fucking make me do that again. He knows nothing about me. I hated that experience. What would have completely reshaped my life was if I went back the next day or the next week and continued that practice.

Jackson Tozer:

Like everything, the more you do it, the better you'll get at it. Yeah. So practice, meditate, mindfulness, so important.

Freya Graf:

Yep. Awesome. Thanks, my love.

Jackson Tozer:

Thanks, dude. Have a Appreciate it.

Freya Graf:

And that's it, darling hearts. Thanks for stopping by the labia lounge. Your bum groove in the couch will be right where you left it just waiting for you to sink back in for some more double l action next time. If you'd be a dear and subscribe, share this episode or leave a review on iTunes, then you can pat yourself on the snatch because that's a downright act of sex positive feminist activism, and you'd be supporting my vision to educate, empower, demystify and destigmatise with this here podcast. I'm also always open to feedback, topic ideas that you'd love to hear covered, questions or guest suggestions, so feel free to get in touch via my website or over on Insta. You can also send me in TMI stories to be shared anonymously on the pod. My handle is Freya Graff underscore The Labia Lounge, if my account hasn't been deleted for being too sex positive, which, you know, is always a possibility with censorship. But just in case the chronic censorship finally does obliterate my social channels, I'd highly recommend going and joining my mailing list and snagging yourself some fun freebies for the trouble at www.freyagraf.com/freebies.

Freya Graf:

Anyway, later labial legends. See you next time.