Making Death Less Daunting with Death Doula Caroline Lee

Caroline Lee:

This program is brought to you by Pussy Magnets.

Freya Graf:

Welcome. Welcome, my lovely lumps, Or should I say lovely labs? I'm so thrilled to have you here in the Labia Lounge. We're gonna yarn about all things sexuality, womanhood, relationships, intimacy, holistic health, and everything in between. Your legs. Oh. Can't help myself. Anyway, we're gonna have vag loads of real chats with real people about real shit. So buckle up.

Freya Graf:

You're about to receive the sex ed that you never had and have a bloody good laugh while you're at it. Before we dive in, I'd like to respectfully acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land on which I'm recording this, the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin nation. It's an absolute privilege to be living and creating dope podcast content in Naarm and I pay respect to their elders past, present and emerging. Now, if you're all ready, let's flap and do this. Oh my god. Is there such thing as too many vagina jokes in the one intro? Whatever. It's my podcast. I'm leaving it in.

Speaker C:

Hey gang. Just before

Freya Graf:

we jump into this episode, I wanted to offer you an opportunity to access my new mini course for free before I start charging for it in future. It's for people with vulvas and it's quick to complete. It's all about demystifying the female body and pleasure anatomy and getting some basic fundamentals to understand your body better. It's called Pussy Pleasure Secrets, Your Roadmap to Bedroom Bliss. You can grab it on the freebies page of my website or in the show notes. It's a great little free resource to kind of dip your toe in or act as a bit of a taster for my work. So if you've ever been curious about this sort of thing and you just don't know where to start or you want a really quick, easy, accessible, non threatening way to get the ball rolling and start working on this stuff, this is a great place to start. Hey, my beautiful labial legends.

Freya Graf:

Welcome back to the lounge. I have a really interesting topic and guest for you today. It's not something that we've really covered on the labia lounge before. So we're diverging a little bit from the sexuality realm, but I would argue that death and sexuality are very much on the same spectrum, when it comes to life. So today I've got Caroline Li, and Caroline's a death doula and somatic psychologist on a mission to change how we talk about and experience death, dying, and mental health. With a deep belief that the end of life deserves just as much care and intention as the beginning, she supports individuals and families in navigating this profound transition with dignity, agency, and compassion. Blending somatic psychology with psychedelic assisted therapy, Caroline helps people process grief and loss by tuning into the body's wisdom. She makes space for the messy, the raw, and the deeply human, believing wholeheartedly in our capacity to heal.

Freya Graf:

Beyond her one on one work as a therapist, Caroline is passionate about breaking down the stigma around aging, loss, and mortality. Through educational content and public conversations, she challenges outdated narratives and empowers people to embrace these topics with openness and courage. Talking about death is talking about life in her opinion. So what a gorgeous bio. What an incredible mission. Welcome, Caroline. I'm so pumped to be talking to

Caroline Lee:

you. Yay. Thank you. So good to be here and so good to hear your accent. I lived in in Melbourne for years and years and was just there back in December.

Freya Graf:

Oh, no way.

Caroline Lee:

My, Yeah. My son is just over one year old, and it was the first country that I brought him to outside of The US. And it was very important to me that he get to experience what was my home. And, so it's very good to hear your accent and feel a little a little piece of my heart at home hearing your hearing your accent.

Freya Graf:

That's gorgeous. Thank you. Oh, how gorgeous. That would have been so awesome to see all of your old friends and, get to introduce your child. Your son, was it?

Caroline Lee:

Mhmm. Yeah. It was just it was a wild fantasy of mine, and it went better than I could have ever wished. So it was it was gorgeous. That's a good word for it.

Freya Graf:

Oh, such a good time of year to come as well in December and summer.

Caroline Lee:

Yes.

Freya Graf:

Epic.

Caroline Lee:

Yeah. We went camping at the beach, and it was it was magical. So, anyway, so much love for for Melbourne and Australia, and it's gorgeous.

Freya Graf:

Epic. So cool. Alright. Well, let me know if you ever come back. I guess first things first, I would love to just fill everyone in on what a death doula is. I've done episodes around birth doula ism, if you would say that. And even, like, birth doulas aren't particularly, like, mainstream or well known. Like, it's still quite fringe.

Freya Graf:

So, I remember being quite, intrigued when I heard about a death doula. So could you just let us know what is a death doula, and what does one do?

Caroline Lee:

Mhmm. Yeah. I was gonna ask if you if you know death doulas in Australia because I know that it is a thing, but it's become more and more of a thing in The US really, I think, since COVID.

Freya Graf:

Right.

Caroline Lee:

But, officially, a death doula is nonmedical support, around things to do with aging, end of life planning, and even, sitting vigil with someone as they're dying and then also logistics after someone has died. It especially in The US, I don't know how it is in Australia, but we do a terrible job of supporting people with handling the logistics of the legal documents, the banks, the car state. You know? There are so many things, loose ends of an entire life to tie up. And that is happening simultaneously as an immense loss in most cases. And so having someone who says, you know what? I I understand the I know the ropes. I know the bureaucracy. Let me support. Let me handle this with you.

Caroline Lee:

So it's really there's quite a few chapters of life that a death doula can come alongside someone, and different death doulas, specialize in different things. Sometimes they only work with someone in end of life planning, and they might sit with them and write out what are your wishes, what what would you like the final years or days of your life to look like. And then other times, it's much more hands on in the moment, kind of like a birth doula that's with someone while they're actually in labor. And birth and death have quite a few parallels. So it it's, it's been interesting to, be around so much death and study it and befriend it, if you will. And then also to give birth myself and to be like, woah. Okay. There's some some parallels.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. Wow. When you gave birth, because this is the first time you've gone through that experience, pretty recently, what were the main parallels or commonalities that you experienced?

Caroline Lee:

Well, one of the things that I say when I'm working with with people, and I often say this in my work as a therapist in preparing people around their loved ones dying, is that people die how they live. Like, a personality is consistent when someone is getting close to death. They don't autumn they don't suddenly become a different person, unless, of course, the illness that they're facing is something that affects them mentally or or cognitively. If it's Yeah. Something like Alzheimer's or dementia that is affecting their their brain, okay, I take that back. But, otherwise, you know, if someone was a type a personality and really liked to control everything and have a plan and have their Google Docs and spreadsheets, they're not suddenly gonna just become this really calm, casual, anything goes kind of person. It's we're consistent. And I think that I really noticed that in birth as well.

Caroline Lee:

You know? People people come into it. People love to come into it with a birth plan. People love to have their intentions and their things that they really want to happen. And yet I really think that both birth and death are kind of portals where the only way through is surrender. Like, the literal only way through it is to have your will ripped out of your fingers. And once, you know, once it pops and you're like, okay. This is the this is the portal that we're entering into, it's kind of like, see you on the other side. Whatever that is.

Caroline Lee:

Whether it's birth or whether it's death, it's like, whatever happens is going to be about can you stay present while it's happening? Can you surrender while it's happening? It's so much bigger than we are. It's so much bigger than what our brains understand or what our science can explain. And so to quite literally kind of engage with dancing with this mystery, there's a part of us that just has to go, okay.

Freya Graf:

Totally. Totally. Yeah. I love I love that you brought words like mystery and portal into it because it really is. It's a rite of passage. Right? You know, birth as in getting born as well as giving birth as well as dying. They're very much rites of passages that involve beginnings and endings. And, it's just, yeah, it's such a it's such a shame that, at least in our kind of, like, modern Western culture, we have a really warped, really sort of stunted relationship with death.

Freya Graf:

And, yeah, like, I I love that there are, there are occupations now. There's people like you that exist to sort of caretake and usher people through that rite of passage, and in really practical ways. Like, you know, that's that's similar with with birth doulas as well. Like, it's potentially, like, making meals afterwards and supporting the mom, like, even once the birth has happened, and you're talking about all of the logistical, you know, things. It's such a nightmare to do all of that, and and it's basically like event management when you're trying to hook up the funeral and you're going through paperwork and you're getting in touch with people. You know, complete nightmare at the best of times, let alone when you're grieving and you've just had your world tips up tipped upside down and often completely unexpectedly. So to have a person who's, you know, really informed, really trauma informed, really empathetic and neutral and isn't being, you know, put in this, like, pressure of grief and, oh my god, the intensity of that if you're actually part of, like, the family. So cool that you can come in and provide such a special service and support and really, really practical hands on support as well, because I often just yeah.

Freya Graf:

I think how fucked up it is that, like, the people closest to the person who's died died has to, like, handle all of that in that aftermath. It's really, really wild. But I wanted to I wanted to, like, touch on, you know, what I just mentioned at the start of that massive rant about our relationship to death. You know, it's it's really commonly talked about as, like, everyone's biggest fear. Like, the most common fear people have is the fear of dying. We kinda don't know how to talk about it or deal with it, and I feel like this just leads us to be so woefully underprepared when it does come knocking, even when we've had a bit of warning, but definitely when it's unexpected. And I just, like, love to hear from you some traditions or practices that other cultures have around death and dying that you know of, that just sort of, like, shows us how it actually can be approached and how it can be done well, I guess I guess. Done done well.

Freya Graf:

You know what I mean? Mhmm.

Caroline Lee:

Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah. I think there are so many cultures that dance with mortality with a lot more curiosity and care and ritual as well. Mhmm. I think a lot of a lot of religions handle death by sort of saying, like, don't worry. You don't have to worry about it because we're eternal souls. So you don't have to think about it because you will see each other again, which to me, I'm like, well, that just bypassed an entire process.

Caroline Lee:

Like, I and and I even make an effort to not talk about afterlife in my work with death because I'm like, it's two separate things. We're we're not actually death might be connected to air quotes afterlife and what your beliefs are around spirituality and souls or that this is the end or whatever people's, beliefs are. But I really try to bring death into our relationship with the body, that death is the end of the body. We can we can all align on that. Every single religion can say, well, we we think that this is what happens, and maybe there's a purgatory, and maybe there's, you know, this many days before your soul like, there are so many different beliefs around that. And I think that to bring it to the body and to say yes, but my life force energy exists in this body right here, right now with these 10 fingers and these 10 toes, I even call my body a her for the sake of that, almost making her separate to me to say my relationship with her is here in this body for while I'm here. And when she's done, I don't know what's happening to me. I'm I'm gonna go somewhere and do something.

Caroline Lee:

But some of the some of the countries and cultures and and religions and faith practices that hold death with so much care and intention. I think of I think of Mexico. They have they have Day of the Dead, which is around Halloween and that's a really, really, really important time for the entire country, to to be with those who have already died, ancestors, to acknowledge that. I also think that, Judaism has a very, very strong practice around death and dying. There are women who bathe a body after someone has died in the Jewish faith. They they bathe the body while they sing different prayers over the body. Then they sit Shiva and and grieve together, and there's very specific prayers and practices that happen. There's a book that's coming to mind.

Caroline Lee:

Actually, it's called from here to to eternity, and it's by Caitlin Doughty who's a mortician, turned death educator. And she traveled the world, researching death practices that different cultures have. And she outlined some of the different places that she went around the world and what their practices are. So if this interests anyone, From Here to Eternity by Caitlin Doughty is a wonderful book to to dive into for more.

Freya Graf:

Wow. Beautiful. That would be so fascinating to me. I've I've yeah. I definitely love to read that because whenever I've got just such a shocking memory for these sorts of anecdotes, but people have told me, you know, oh, in this culture, they do this and, you know, they there's a lot more I mean, one of the things that I really notice when people talk about it and give examples is there's a lot more, like, outward expressions of emotions, so like wailing and, like, really sort of embodied grieving that is very acceptable and normalised in other cultures. At the funeral and in the days after. There's real rituals and traditions around it that don't try to just sort of zip it up and get on with things. It's very much like, no, this has happened.

Freya Graf:

We're dwelling in this. You know, maybe even just, you know, wearing black for a certain amount of time so people know that you've just gone through this big rite of passage that is such enormous grief and loss. There's something about how we yeah. It's like we just we don't even wanna see the dead body. We kind of get it all we sanitize it almost. You know? There's no like, in my world, there's no, like, family members washing the body. Like, you wouldn't even really see it. You know? There wouldn't even be an open casket.

Freya Graf:

It would be like, cool. That's we'll just get that out of the way. And then also you have to kinda get on with things. And so, yeah, it's super interesting to just notice the differences, and I'd be really curious because for me, growing up with, like, no like, no one talked about death, didn't really have a whole lot of, initiation into that space. The thought of seeing a dead body of a loved one completely horrifies me. But perhaps that would be a really important special part of my grieving process and accepting this thing that's happened, you know, if I had had a different relationship and people talked about it differently and practiced different things for me growing up. Yeah. So I'm I'm curious, like, how how do you see other ways, you know, maybe in the language that we use, maybe in the media, around aging, around death, around dying, that in our sort of, like, modern western society, we're kind of shooting ourselves in the foot or where we're creating pretty, like, unhealthy circumstances with which we then have to try to handle death in.

Caroline Lee:

Yeah. I think that's a great question because it's sort of asking where in our subconscious patterning do we create death phobia, and do we perpetuate this idea that we can just if we don't talk about it, then it's not there, which

Freya Graf:

is not

Caroline Lee:

true. But I think a couple of answers to that question, one is honestly in using words other than death and died when someone dies. When when we say things like they passed away or we lost them, we create kind of a distance from it's dead. It's they're dead. It's death. It's death. And, obviously, there's reasons why we're trying to be gentle. We're trying not to to trigger.

Caroline Lee:

But I think we're doing each other a disservice because then we dance around what is true. And then, you know, one of the things that is so common in in my work as a death doula is a lot of times people reach out to me and they say, oh, I'm my loved one is dying. My loved one has a terminal diagnosis. They're you know, have advanced cancer. And I want you to talk to them. I want you to help them plan their end of life. They won't they won't plan their end of life. And they don't even wanna talk to anyone that's a death doula because they don't wanna acknowledge that they're gonna die.

Caroline Lee:

So can we tell them you do something else? And for that purpose, one of the reason that's one of the reasons why I became a therapist as well is because I I was like, you know what? People still have lots of feelings about the word death doula, but they know what a therapist is. And plenty of people who have a terminal diagnosis have a lot of feelings even if they may not want to admit that, they do. So I say, sure. Just tell them I'm a I'm a therapist. That's fine. I I don't need someone to know to acknowledge that I'm a death doula in order for me to be able to be with them around those questions. But even that is so I cannot even tell you how common that is when someone says my loved one is dying. They won't say death.

Caroline Lee:

Can we tell them that you do something else? So I think the word itself, using it, whenever possible is is a big one. I think another one is really looking at the way that our language holds and frames death as a failure. For example, if someone has a if if someone has something, let's say, cancer, and they die, often we say things like they lost their battle with Yeah. Which is creating a narrative that they failed. There was there was something. They were in a battle. You know? If we're talking about any other battles and someone loses, that's not a good thing. We're not like, oh, great.

Caroline Lee:

That you know? But losing a battle with is setting up the idea that this was a bad thing that they should have been able to avoid, or if they would have fought harder, it wouldn't have happened to them. And so really bringing in some awareness around, well, death is gonna happen to all of us, and it's not a failure. Actually, my body came here knowing she's gonna die. She knows she's going to. She's like, I already got it. I already know I I know how I got here. I know how I'm leaving. I'm good.

Caroline Lee:

It's you I'm worried about. Are you gonna be alright?

Freya Graf:

Totally. Yeah.

Caroline Lee:

So it's more about acknowledging that even our even the way that we talk about aging, you know, our our failing health or, you know, these words that we have around all of them. Decay. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm like, entropy is it's literally what we're doing here. It in it is reality. It is what is here. So if we can do that, hold that, see that not as a personal failure, and part of that is capitalism, part of that is us having this fight for eternal youth, and, oh, if only I can just buy one more supplement that will biohack my way to 99 years old.

Caroline Lee:

But even then, you're gonna die at 99. So what why not engage with that? Does that make sense?

Freya Graf:

Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. It's just, it's really similar in a way to, you know, like so my work around sexuality, there's so much censorship. There's so much hush-hush. Don't talk about it. Sweep it under the rug.

Freya Graf:

And because of that kind of, silence, that allows a lot of shame, a lot of guilt, a lot of, sort of, misinformation and misunderstanding to kind of breed, behind closed doors. And I feel like normalizing speaking about it is such a, you know, a passion of mine. That's why I have this podcast. And I imagine, like, with death, it's very similar. We are kinda like, oh my god. Why are we not talking about this more? If we just normalize talking about it more, we'd have a way healthier relationship with it, and we would automatically just be more prepared and more equipped to deal with it. And, like, I even noticed in your social media posts, you have to alter the the characters. Like, you spell the word death differently, and, you know, I have to do that with terms around sex because of censorship and shadow banning because meta hates, you know, all and I'm like Mhmm.

Freya Graf:

Wow. That's really interesting because, you know, I'm really focused on my industry and I know the words that I have to censor, but I had no idea that you kind of needed to tiptoe around the topic of death as well on social media. Like, there's so much censorship. Like, why do you think we're so freaking afraid of talking about death? Like, what has created this weird relationship to it? That's a big question, by the way, but if you have any thoughts on that.

Caroline Lee:

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think I think part of it well, there's I think there's many there's probably an answer for every century, honestly. I think if we think about it from a biology, somatic standpoint, you know, like I said before, our bodies know how to die. Our bodies are like, cool. Like, I know how I got here. I know how to leave. I I I got it.

Caroline Lee:

I got it. I'm not confused on that. I think our brains, our literal, you know, lizard brain going way, way, way back in time is here to help us not die. And it's here to look for danger at all times and to be incredibly hyper vigilant around fight or flight mode if there's a you know, we literally are still here because we learned how to run from lions and tigers and, and how to just be really conscious of not dying all the time. So I think there's a biological level of survival that just our brains say, don't talk about that. That's that's scary. That's bad. And it's almost, it's almost a little bit, like, superstitious, I think, is the word that I'm looking for.

Caroline Lee:

That's like, if you talk about it, it might happen. If you give it, you know, these sort of word phrases like, oh, don't give it energy. Yep. Where I'm just, you know, there are so many things that we can talk about and talking about them won't make them happen. But I think that's one of the more early parts of our own development that might still be there. I think there are also parts that come online around things like we talked about a minute ago around religion. And for people, it brings up the question of, well, what happens afterwards? And that's really, really, really, really scary. And so one way to protect yourself from feeling afraid of having to answer the question of what happens after you die is you just don't talk about death at all.

Caroline Lee:

And then you don't have to think about any of it. You can just avoid it all. So I think a lot of it is this question of existential protection, existential dread, eternity, these big giant words that are just very overwhelming and it's much easier to, just avoid altogether. And then, of course, like I said, capitalism being something that just rewards you for avoiding it and not talking about it and saying, well, if we look over here and try this lotion and this supplement and this vacation and, the more it distracts us from being with what is in our own mortality, the more we're rewarded for, you know, avoiding it. So I think those are a few of my answers, but what about you? Does do you have an answer? Why do you think why do you think we're so good at ignoring and avoiding something that's so so real? Yeah.

Freya Graf:

I mean, I think similarly to things like sex and pregnancy and birth. Like, there's something very raw and primal. And I think in at least, like, from the lens of, you know, social media and what's appropriate or whatever, we've gotten very sanitized, because anything a little bit animalistic or a little bit primal that reminds us of the sort of, like, really raw human side of us, like, has been made to be seen as, like, dirty or sinful if you're religious or inappropriate or a little bit too out of control. Something about, like, being truly embodied is very, it's bad for the patriarchy and it's bad for capitalism if we're actually super embodied and connected to these rites of passage and these initiations into, like, being more and more and more connected to the body and the cycles of, like, Earth and mother nature, you know? It's, like, just another tool to separate us and disconnect us further, which, like, leaves us even more kind of, like, vulnerable and and powerless, in the face of capitalism and consumerism and all of that. It's a pretty, like it sounds very conspiratorial, but I think, like, yeah, anything that reminds us we're human and we're mortal and, that might be a little messy or a little bit too confronting in its rawness, because everything's been so sanitized to try to, like, make us feel like shit about ourselves and buy more things and, like, forget about the fact that we're pillaging our planet. Yeah. Like but, I mean, it's a big rant, but that's kind of that's kind of how I feel about it. And because I think, like, we're really divorced from any, at least my experience, I'm I'm, like, white.

Freya Graf:

I don't have much kind of culture or traditional lineage in my ancestry to speak of. Like, these days, I have zero religion. Like, my family, atheists. You know, there isn't really any I don't even have, like, a traditional dish that a nonna cooked or something or you know? So it's very much, like, you know, pretty pretty divorced from any any sort of tradition or cultural ritual, you know, all that sort of stuff that would create more connection. Yeah. Like, I'm just kinda out here, like, trying to figure it out. And so it's not it's not I don't I don't think a lot of people, have much of a relationship with, yeah, with death because we're lacking any scaffolding or, like, any framework for how to talk about it, for how to approach it. Like, I was just talking to, my beautiful friend and housemate.

Freya Graf:

We live together, and we, we she has a daughter, and I kind of I'm like auntie Freya. And she's nearly four, and she just started asking about and talking about, like, the concept of death. And we're like, okay. How do we like, we had no like, we don't remember how our parents talked to us about it. I've got no idea. Like, I've never seen it done well. So, like, yeah, we're just really lacking any framework because of, like, a lack of culture, a lack of tradition, which is a really long answer to your question. But, actually, I did wanna ask you while I've got you, how the fuck do we talk to kids about death? Mhmm.

Freya Graf:

Hey, baby babes. Sorry to interrupt. I just had to pop my head into the lounge here and mention another virtual lounge that I'd love you to get around. It's the Labia Lounge Facebook group that I've created for listeners of the potty to mingle in. There you'll find extra bits and bobs like freebies, behind the scenes, or discounts for offerings from guests who have been interviewed on the podcast. They'll also be, hopefully, inspiring, thought provoking conversations and support from a community of labial legends like yourself. My vision for this is that it becomes a really supportive, educational and hilarious resource for you to have more access to me and a safe space to ask questions you can't ask anywhere else. So head over to links in the show notes or look up the Labia Lounge group in Facebook, and I'll see you in there.

Freya Graf:

And now back to the episode.

Caroline Lee:

Yeah. That's a great question. I think, so often I get emails or calls from people who are saying, how do I talk to my kid about death? And, I think they're so equipped to talk about it. I think that we're the ones who make it weird. We're the ones

Freya Graf:

Same with sex.

Caroline Lee:

Start yeah. We're the ones who tiptoe around and say, like, oh, I don't know if we should tell them. I'm I immediately ask them, what do you think? What do you think it is? What do you think? Where do you think someone I think sometimes they come in with more wisdom than we give them credit for. And so to start with curiosity and to to model that it's not a taboo topic, to model that there's emotion there, especially if it's someone that you really love who's dying and to say, I'm really sad because they're not gonna be in their body anymore, and I I miss them. I want I wanna hug them. I wanna go and have lunch with them, and I miss them terribly. That I think that's fine. I think also kids understanding death around animals and pets is really a really wonderful entry point.

Caroline Lee:

But I think for for a lot of kids, they are curious and open, and they don't have any taboo around it until we Yeah. Show them. They come in and, like, what's that? What happened? What's that about? Tell me more. And we're the ones who say, oh, you know, grandma went on vacation for a while, and you're like, wait. What? That's you're literally lying to them. It's kind of like the ways that we lie to kids about sex and bodies and and and it just ends up creating all kinds of problems. And I'm sure you could tell me all your best stories from the podcast of all the weird things that people have heard. And it's like you end up giving people things they need to go to therapy for later rather than just being with what is in the moment.

Caroline Lee:

Mhmm.

Freya Graf:

Oh my god. Yeah. I love that. There's so many parallels with how we approach talking to kids about sex and how we fuck them up and similarly with death because of our own sort of, you know, discomfort, I suppose, and awkwardness and fear. And I think, like, yeah, something that I really liked, that my housemate said that she'd sort of been reading because we were like, oh, I don't know. I guess because, like, my approach is generally just, like, just answer her questions, like, honestly and with simple language. Don't sugarcoat it. Don't try to use metaphors or euphemisms.

Freya Graf:

Like yeah. She and she was like, you just say, like, their body shuts down and stops working. But I guess, like, the thing with kids is, like, they're always like, oh, but why? And then what? And then but then what happens to their, like, you know it's like if their body shuts down, what happens to their mind? And where does that go? And what happens afterwards? And it's like, wow. Like, we just don't have the answers to that. And it's okay to not have the answers. I think you can actually just say, like, you know what? Like, I don't know. Like, what do you think happens? And, rather than trying to, like, soften the blow by making up you know, it's basically like Santa Claus. It's just saying like, yeah.

Freya Graf:

And then it goes to that's how I felt about heaven when I was a kid. I was like, this is a platitude that the adults are telling me. It's not true. Like, because I was quite, you know, skeptical from a young age when, when I would hear sort of religious themes. Yeah. So that's really cool, advice that you've just given, like, being curious and also not beating around the bush. And that's the same with, like, talking tickets about sex, which I do have episodes about. Yeah.

Freya Graf:

Just be real with them, you know? And they can sense your discomfort, and they can sense if you're being super freaking weird about it, and they will internalize the shit out of that. So

Caroline Lee:

Mhmm. Mhmm. Mhmm. Ain't it the truth?

Freya Graf:

Yeah. So quick little segue into the the get pregnant and die segment. Do you have a, a story about your sex ed? And it doesn't have to relate to death, but, you know, if it did, that would be great. Don't have sex because you will get pregnant and there's a lot of sex. Don't have sex in the missionary position, but I thought I'd have sex standing up. Just don't do it. Promise?

Caroline Lee:

I don't know if I have one that has real has related to death, but I do have one that's related to this idea of parents being weird. Sorry, mom, that you're listening. But Perfect. So this is my this is the story that that came to mind, for me and my own journey with understanding sex or or not understanding it. When I was little, I I don't know, I was probably six or something, my cousin, who is white, gave birth to a baby who was not white. And I was a little girl, and I was like, wow, mom. How and she wasn't married, so I didn't know her partner. And he, you know, he wasn't around.

Caroline Lee:

And so I was like, mom, how did she how did she have a baby that's brown? Like, this is amazing. You know, I was so curious, and I I needed to know. And my mom's response was, oh, she's just lucky.

Freya Graf:

Oh, gosh. So you just thought you could get pretty much any color baby coming out of there, like a mixed bag of Skittles or something. Oh my god. That would be fun.

Caroline Lee:

Yeah. Yeah. I grew up my entire life just going like, wow. There's an awful lot of white babies coming out of these white people. They're not lucky.

Freya Graf:

Oh my god. I love that's such a cute story. I mean, problematic in its own way, but, like, I love that, and that's such a perfect example of what we're speaking about. Yeah.

Speaker C:

Oh, my gosh.

Freya Graf:

Great. Thank you. So total pivot. I'm really, really interested in, and I'm loving seeing so many more, psychedelic assisted therapists pop up and these kind of, like, the modalities developing. I've had Charlie Wenninger on the podcast who wrote a book called Listening to Ecstasy, which was about, like, MDMA. He was, like, a therapist that used MDMA for couples therapy way, way, way, way back. He's in his seventies now. And he and his wife came on, and we chatted about psychedelics and MDMA and cannabis.

Freya Graf:

So it's, it's a topic that I'm I've been interested in in years, and I'm really curious about the sort of relationship with psychedelics and death and, like, the role that psychedelic assisted therapy can play in preparing for death and in the grieving process. I'd love to hear a little bit about your work with that and and also, you know, the component of somatic psychology, which I think, like, that somatic piece is so, so powerful.

Caroline Lee:

Mhmm. Yeah. It's it's really one of the main reasons that I became a therapist because I was already a death doula and really wanted people to have access to doing psychedelic assisted therapy around mortality, grief, terminal diagnoses, etcetera. And I thought, okay. Well, I wanna be able to be above ground about that because there's so much underground work, And I'm sure that's the same in Australia, although Yeah. Can't be sure. But there's a lot of under there's so much underground work in The States. And for me and the way that I am and the way that I want to be very, very vocal about what matters to me, I just thought, you know what? It's worth it to go through the game, to become a therapist, to be able to do legal above board

Freya Graf:

Or legit?

Caroline Lee:

Assisted there. Yeah. Go legit so that I can be an advocate. And then, you know, it's a high price to pay. Like, it's, going in The US, especially school is so expensive, and it's years and it's time. But for me, it's such a strong tool. It's such a strong support in both the person who is doing the dying and also their loved ones getting to grieve, getting to deepen their relationship with their own bodies, as you said, but also with, also with their grief, their meaning making around it. There's some very, very incredible, clinical trials that have been going on for the past few years at some of the big universities in The US, like Johns Hopkins University.

Caroline Lee:

There's a whole Berkeley School of Psychedelics, and they're doing, clinical trials with people who have terminal diagnoses and studying okay. Let's say this group of people has cancer, and they're all struggling with really severe fear of death and depression. And we're gonna do one treatment with psilocybin, which is mushrooms, magic mushrooms. One treatment with mushrooms and then track their results. And it's incredible. It's really, really not not subtle results. It's like these people come out and they say that this experience is one of the top five most experiences of their life, most shaping and influencing experience of their life. They come out saying they're no longer afraid of death.

Caroline Lee:

They come out saying they're they're no longer experiencing depression and a feeling of hopelessness as they face their slow death often that can come slowly with something like cancer. And so those sorts of trials and and and results that we're hearing are so hopeful for me because I know that to be true through my own life and through my own work with people. But I want the masses to be able to embrace it. I want them to see the data and to be even if there are people who don't wanna trust one one off woo woo death doula therapist who's like, it's a really good idea. Maybe they'll trust, you know, years and years and years of of research and

Freya Graf:

of data. Yeah.

Caroline Lee:

Yeah. Yeah. So I think for for me, with different people, you know, I can legally do ketamine assisted therapy, as a therapist, which is wonderful because ketamine can be used with almost all, other drugs that yeah. Medications. So so if someone has a diagnosis and they're on quite a bit of medication, some of the other psychedelics are not good to to pair, with them. They either won't work or they might have some various contraindications. Ketamine can pretty much be used with most other things, SSRIs, etcetera. There's no there's there's nothing there.

Caroline Lee:

Obviously, do it with the use of, support with a doctor and making sure that everything has been checked out. But ketamine is is a good one. It's not my favorite. I wouldn't recommend I don't run around telling everyone that ketamine is the best thing to support with, grief and with mortality, but it's good. But also, you know, psilocybin mushrooms, really, really, really, really powerful. Also Ayahuasca is something that a lot of people, find to really deepen their understanding and relationship with death, and grief and and the body and embodiment. And as you said, MDMA, which is also less a plant medicine. So psilocybin and ayahuasca are both plant based, whereas MDMA is human made.

Caroline Lee:

And that dumps so much serotonin in your brain that it is not scary to talk about anything. And I know, I think it was last year I saw that Australia was the first country in the world to legalize MDMA assisted therapy, which I was really excited to see because I thought and hoped that The US would be quick to follow, and we were not, which was a whole side side story. But I think MDMA is a really, really profound tool in being able to access feelings, that are really complex. It's used a lot for people with PTSD, where they may have blocked off a memory or, even just even if they haven't blocked it off, they they aren't able to talk about it without retraumatizing themselves. But during that period of time where they're in the medicine, where they have taken MDMA, there's enough serotonin in their brain that they don't feel the fear response and so the Yeah. Part of them that is cutting it off, they can just quite easily access it and think through it, talk about it. And so again with the clinical trials that are being done, the results around PTSD, more than fifty percent of people who do MDMA therapy no longer, are diagnosed with PTSD, which is just really, really, really incredible. So I have a lot of, hope for the ways that we will continue to normalize and, make these medicines and spaces accessible.

Caroline Lee:

And also just a last thing that I'll throw in, I know I've talked for a long time right now, but

Freya Graf:

Oh, no.

Caroline Lee:

The last the last thing that I think is really interesting around psychedelic assisted therapy and death is that it's a place to practice letting go of control. It's a place to say, I'm gonna set my intentions, and I I will set my intentions. I will do the work. And then once once I take that medicine, it's time to just let go. And

Freya Graf:

Mhmm.

Caroline Lee:

That is exactly what birth is. That is exactly what death is. And so every single time I work with psychedelics, it is a dress rehearsal for me.

Freya Graf:

Woah. I love that. That's such an important piece to double tap on. You know? The the practice at letting go and surrendering and relinquishing control, which is so it feels so unnatural to so many people. That's massive. And, yeah, I've definitely experienced what you're sort of speaking on, that that letting go of control, that surrender, and the relief that comes with that. But there's such a tussle when your sort of mind and your ego is just not quite ready to let go. And then I think the thing with psychedelics, at least in my experience, has been that it sort of forces you to.

Freya Graf:

And then all of a sudden you're like, okay. Fine. I let go, and then you're like, oh god. Oh, okay. That's what this feels like. And so it is. It's practicing a skill that we don't get a lot of practice at and, in fact, is is discouraged most of the time. We're sort of taught to, like, grit our teeth and bear things, to remain composed, to, you know, drink a cup of concrete and harden up and just get on with things, and never to sort of show weakness or, drop our bundle.

Freya Graf:

You know? There's so many expressions around, like, keeping it together. And so it's such a powerful tool. And, again, like, I can't believe how often I feel like I can really relate to what you're saying with regards to my work, but so many clients that come to me that struggle to have an orgasm or especially orgasm with a partner, it's often a real challenge around letting go of control and surrendering, because our sort of society and culture is very against that. You know? It's it's hustle culture. It's boss bitch culture. It's like, put on a brave face, mask all of your feelings, and just, like, do the thing, and look look composed while you're doing it. And, and, yeah, there's such a focus on power and control, and we don't get a lot of practice at letting go of control. So when you get an opportunity to in the bedroom, for instance, like, orgasm really requires you to let go of control, to lose control.

Freya Graf:

And, yeah, similarly with, like, the surrender that's required in death and when you're starting to come up on psychedelics, it just kinda forces you to surrender.

Caroline Lee:

Yeah. It does. Yeah. So I

Freya Graf:

love that. It must be insanely powerful and such an honor and such a privilege to kind of, facilitate people in that space. Do you have any kind of stories or insights or favorite parts of those sessions, whether it's with someone who is dying and kind of learning to accept that or family members? Like, do you do group sessions? Do you work one on one with family members? Like, I just love a bit more of an insight because it's such a new modality, and a lot of people will never have heard of it. Mhmm.

Caroline Lee:

I mean, I think the answer is is yes to to all of the above. It's it is for different groups of people, for different individuals, for families, for, people who are processing grief both for themselves or for others. And it's, oh, wow. It's it's really it's really, really profound, for so many different different reasons. I think I it's funny because I could easily just, like, change their names and make it, you know, someone else. But I feel I feel a little bit funny about telling a story about someone else, but I wanna tell a story about myself, if that's alright. Right.

Speaker C:

Yeah. Of course.

Caroline Lee:

Using, using using psychedelics, around me supporting someone else in their death. I was I was their their doula, and they were telling me day after day after day, I'm ready. I'm ready. I'm I'm wanting to go. You know, they were really, really, suffering. They were way past the point that most people would have died. And yet for whatever reason, they were they weren't dying. And every single day, they were saying, I really wanna I wanna die.

Caroline Lee:

I want complete like, let let's let it happen. And it wasn't happening. And so one night, I went home. I I didn't I wasn't staying with them at night. And so one night, I went home, and I used a psychedelic to tap into my own body to ask my body what is their what is their body need to let go. Because I was like, my conscious mind is way too controlling right now. Like, my conscious mind is just trying to make sure everything's okay and everything's good, and my conscious mind is not listening to their body. But I know that my body's next to their body most of every single day, and my body can actually hear what they need.

Caroline Lee:

And it was crazy because it was like I just went like, k. I just need to listen to my body for a second. What does their body need to actually let go? And it was like my body almost, like, wrote it in a letter. It was so clear. It was like, this is exactly what they need to hear. This is what they need to feel. And not only that, my body said it was gonna take three days. It will happen if you do this, it will happen in three days.

Caroline Lee:

And it was like clockwork. It was so crazy, the way that they were able like, I I went over in the next day, and I said, hey. I just had this idea. I was thinking maybe we try getting you in a different position and, you know, set I'll I think how about I'll spend the night with you, you know, then you're not gonna be you're not gonna be kind of a like, it it was basically they needed to be able to relax because you actually have to relax to die. And so we did everything we could to get them into a place of total, total calm and relaxation. And three days later, right when my body said, if the if you do these things, it will take three days. And it did. And I was like, woah.

Caroline Lee:

It it was just really amazing for me to really realize that my body is a part of Duline Yeah. Other bodies and that my body, if I listen, like, there's a whole lot of awareness going on here that's different to the intelligence of my brain.

Freya Graf:

Totally. Woah. Yeah. The attunement piece, I feel like I've really experienced psychedelics helping me become very attuned with other people's bodies, with energy. Like, it's yeah. That's so, so special. Wow. Thank you for sharing that story.

Freya Graf:

Excuse this quick interruption. I'm shamelessly seeking reviews and five star ratings for the potty because as I'm sure you've noticed by now, it's pretty fab. And the more people who get to hear it, the more people I can help with it. Reviews and ratings actually do make a big difference to this little independent podcaster, and it's really easy to just quickly show your support by taking that simple act of either leaving five stars for the show on Spotify or, even better, writing a written review and leaving five stars over on Apple Podcasts. Or if you're a real overachiever, you can do them both. That would be mad. If you're writing a review though, just be sure to use g rated words because despite the fact that this is a podcast about sexuality, words like sex can be censored and your review won't make it through the gates. Lame.

Freya Graf:

Anyway, I would personally recommend doing that right now while you remember just to get on top of it and let me know you're with me on this journey. Thanks, gang. Enjoy the rest of the epi. So I would love to chat about probably, like, one of the most kind of common well, I don't know if that's true. A common thing that I feel like a lot of people can relate to that I'm coming up against that's pretty confronting, and that's sort of starting to realize that, you know, my parents are getting old, and I'm noticing little things that indicate perhaps, like, a slowing down. Being reminded in these moments that there's a finite amount of time left, That makes me pretty uncomfortable to think about, and it's a bit scary. So I just like, my mind just wants to go, nope. Nope.

Freya Graf:

I'm just not dealing with that right now. I don't have the capacity to think about that right now. You know, and I just sort of try to distract myself and get on with the business of fucking surviving. But it's this inevitable thing that will happen to everyone at some point. And, if you're lucky, through the process of naturally aging, you know, your parents will die, and there's going to be a a period of time where, like, that's really, really present, and it's kind of it's really happening. And I'm just curious, like, what do you recommend to people who are in this position with aging parents, approaching death more imminently? Because, you know, of everything we just spoke about, making it really uncomfortable and something we wanna avoid and not face. Like, I'm literally noticing in myself, like, oh, I don't wanna face that right now. Like, so surely I've just got a bit more time.

Freya Graf:

What like, where should we start? Like, should we just be having more conversations about that with our parents? Like, what do you recommend?

Caroline Lee:

Such an important question. And and a really common one too, I, I ended up making a course, an online course specifically about this because so many people are like you and me that were, like, having aging parents, wanting to engage with them and be present with them, but also going like, well, this is a lot because there's your feelings and my feelings going on at the same time. There's the logistics. There's, you know, responsibility that comes into play. There's a lifetime of relational history with them, whether there's, healthy emotional dynamics, whether there's codependence, whether there's estrangement. It's very, very layered, and it's very complex. So I I made a I made a course about it, and it's something that I feel really passionately about talking about as much as possible, partly because it's me and my generation, like you. It's it's us and our parents that are aging, and I want them to have a good, a good final chapter of their life or final chapters.

Caroline Lee:

I think that talking about it sooner rather than later is the way to go. And I also you know, the boomer generation, baby boomers in The US, there are 73,000,000, which is literally giant giant population bigger than any any generation, and 11,000 people are turning 65 every single day in The US right now. So it's just a really, really giant amount of people. And if we aren't talking about it, then we're all gonna be doing the thing where we're like, oh, whoops. We forgot to talk about it, and now we're dealing with this giant mess on our hands. So Mhmm. I think the number one thing that, I can say is your feelings matter first. So whatever practices you have around feeling your feelings, talking about it in therapy, journaling about it, doing psychedelics about it, noticing what's there for you, what what do you feel, what do you, what do you feel about them, what comes up for you about that, and being with that first.

Caroline Lee:

And then using whatever you know about them as the way into this conversation. So if they are happy to talk about anything, then you can just bring it up. Like, what do you want as you age? And I think the biggest thing is framing it about quality of life and entire decades and checking in on what is your what's your vision for your the the next twenty years of your life? Instead of saying, what is your death plan? Saying Mhmm. How do you want to live out the next twenty years? Because more than 50% of people haven't had that conversation. And the things that need to be put in place in order to make someone's hopes and dreams happen is going to take time. So, for example, if a lot of people say, well, I wanna age at home. I wanna age in place. I don't wanna go to a nursing home.

Caroline Lee:

That's important to me. Then I say, I'm so glad that you know that. Let's talk about what that looks like. What does it look like if you get to a point that you can't live alone anymore? Do you wanna have a housemate that might be able to support you and live with you? Do you wanna have paid care? Do you you know, what are the what are the different options? But waiting means and this is what I work with the most. Waiting means that there's a crisis that happens, and then you don't have as much agency because you're just managing a crisis. So

Freya Graf:

Mhmm.

Caroline Lee:

If someone gets a terminal diagnosis or has a fall and breaks their hip or, you know, starts to have memory memory loss and is not able to live alone anymore, usually, those things are are discovered at a moment where a solution needs to be found immediately. There's no time to say, okay. Well, let's explore what what's the best solution. At that point, it's it's a crisis. Yeah. The agency season is gone. So I think talking about it as soon as possible, even if your parents are in their fifties, in their sixties, talk about it. Where do you where do you see yourself living when you retire? Do you have any vision? Do you have any dreams of what that is? Starting there, I think is really, really good way to to edge the way into the actual death and dying logistics.

Caroline Lee:

But talking about it soon, talk about it. Have it be a part of life because not only then are you able to help with the planning side of things, but it also means that you can do things like engage with a legacy project and say, you know what? I actually wanna do a podcast with you, and I wanna ask you all about your life, and I wanna record your your life stories. I wanna ask you all about your stuff and not wait until, oh my goodness, I never I never got those stories out of my parents or, oh, I never asked them about those things. So it really there's potential to have it enrich life now is is the short the short answer.

Freya Graf:

Wow. That's really beautiful. Yeah. I love that. Like, co creating a legacy project. And what about asking for a friend? What about when there's estranged parents that are dying? Yeah. There's so much because it's like, cool. I love the idea of, like, cocreating this beautiful plan with a parent, blah blah blah.

Freya Graf:

But then some parents are shit, Some relationships are really complex, and, you know, there's so much stigma around, like, dying and also not speaking to your parent or not putting in the effort. Like, if it you know? So, basically, just to, like, use a quick personal anecdote, I don't speak to my father. There's a reason for this, but he's, like, been having strokes lately. He's probably dying really soon. And I'm like, oh. Because then everyone sort of expects you to that to change things, and you'd be like, oh, well, I better, like, get back in touch while I have the chance. And now I'm grappling with, like, okay. Do I wanna do that and potentially put myself, like, in in emotional harm's way? Or will I regret that forever? And it's very difficult to separate society's view on, like, oh, blood is thicker than water and you really need to you need to take the opportunity while you can, otherwise you'll regret it once he's dead versus, you know, having boundaries to energetically protect myself.

Freya Graf:

And it's really conflicting. And I'm just curious, like, not not I don't want, like, you know, specific advice on my situation, but that's just to give an example that, like, these these times can be really nuanced. And if there isn't, like, a really straightforward, loving, you know, equal equally reciprocal relationship with a parent and child, how do you kind of help people around the death process then? And, like, what would be some steps, people can take, especially when it's, like, you know, it's it's actively happening? So say, you know, say we're at the crisis point because you said that is quite common that people kind of ignore it until all of a sudden it's like, oh, now we got a fire to put out. What happens then?

Caroline Lee:

Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. That's a really, really tender tender amount of life and and circumstances and boundaries that you've shared. And like you said, with good reason. It's not like you just threw them into place because you were feeling like it one day. And there's a there's a really big reason why I'm a therapist along with my death doula work because this is where the most complex and nuanced parts of human experience and dancing and sharing life together bumps up on each other. And when you have five different people in a room who have decades of history with each other and then five different responses to grief and loss all being activated at once, it gets really, really, really, really sparkly really fast.

Caroline Lee:

So what I would say to you and to anyone else who might be facing this as a as a pretty, like, immediate decision, kind of like, okay. This is a moment that I get some agency to choose. Do I want to open up this door for whatever reason to say goodbye, to say I love you, to say I you know, see if there's any repair to that would happen or if it's just quite literally to say goodbye. The thing that comes to mind is that there will be grief whatever path you choose. And and so my question would be, how can you be with grief? What does grief look like for you, your relationship with it, knowing that, unfortunately, it's not like one you just need to guess which path to take that will be zero resistance. Either one, there will be loss. Either one, there will be, I just lost my boundaries so that I could have this goodbye. If there's the other one where you choose not to, the loss of I never got to get the closure that I wanted.

Caroline Lee:

I never got to feel or hear the things that I hoped would be there. So just acknowledging the weight of loss, the loss of whatever path you choose, there being heaviness, there being so many complex feelings that could be anger, sadness, depression, resentment, regret. These are all things even anxiety, these are all things that are often parts of grief. And so I would I would bring that as a possibility, not saying, like, these people who just go, well, you know, this is the one that you would this is the one that you're gonna regret, and this is the one that you're not. And I would say as someone who sits with people all day every day and and helps them wade through their feelings and wade through even what happened when their loved one died. The people on the other side, they don't say, oh, yeah. Yeah. I did it great.

Caroline Lee:

Now I feel great. They say, what if I would have done the other thing? Did I choose the right thing? Did I choose did I do the right thing? What if I did the other thing? Was their death as good as it could have been? That is a part of this.

Freya Graf:

Yeah.

Caroline Lee:

And so I think I would just say, what is that for you? How is that for

Freya Graf:

Totally. And Totally. And it's so it just comes back to what we've sort of been saying about how we really avoid the sort of messy, the, quote, unquote, negative or the dark. Like, this is shadow work at its best. This is, like, waiting in the muck and the mire and just really getting your hands dirty because we have no choice. And because we're not prepared for that in the way that we live our lives because we're really trying to just, like, shove things under the rug and ignore the negative stuff and the shadowy dark stuff and just focus on the shiny bright stuff and try to try to find winning scenarios. Like, sometimes it's a lose lose, and it's gonna be shit no matter what. And it's around it's more about, like, what you said.

Freya Graf:

Like, how do you navigate grief, and how do you, like, unpack your emotions and sit in that discomfort and pain? And, I think we're just yeah. We're not equipped for that. So it's so heartening that there's people like you to help us navigate it because it's something so inevitable in life. Like, everyone's gonna go through this multiple times in different shapes and forms, and then we're gonna go through it ourselves. So, yeah, it's just it's just really nuanced and complex, and I love that your answer was so reflective of that. I'm curious, like, because obviously there's, like, you know, there's different sides of this coin. It's like the people that are grieving and saying goodbye to a loved one, then there's the people that are actually dying in the cases of getting terminal diagnosis and, like, realizing, like, okay. This is coming up for me soon.

Freya Graf:

Like, is there yeah. Actually, we don't have much time, and there's there's such big questions. I'm just trying to think, like, how I can best use my time. What's the we've got, like, ten minutes max. Right? I'm just looking.

Caroline Lee:

It's so sad. Yeah.

Freya Graf:

If that? Okay. Alright. Let me

Caroline Lee:

Sorry. What

Freya Graf:

would no. It's so far. Like, it's just a big topic. Like, I knew this would happen. No. I'll have to get you back on. What alright. Let's just, like, encapsulate it then and send people away with some kind of action steps, I suppose.

Freya Graf:

Like, what would you love to see more of in society with regards to how we approach death? Like, maybe some little tips or tidbits, to take away and implement around this.

Caroline Lee:

Mhmm. Mhmm.

Speaker C:

Hey. Me again. If you'd like to support the potty and you've already given it five stars on whatever platform you're listening on, I wanna mention that you can buy some really dope merch from the website and get yourself a labia lounge tote, tea, toggs. Yep. You heard that right. I even have labia lounge bathers.

Freya Graf:

Or a cute fanny pack, if that'd blow your hair back.

Speaker C:

So, if fashion isn't your passion though, you can donate to my buy me a coffee donation page, which is actually called buy me a soy chai latte because I'll be the first to admit, I'm a bit of a Melbourne cafe tosser like that. And, yes, that is my coffee order. You can do a one soft donation or an ongoing membership and sponsor me for as little as 3 fat ones a month. And I also offer one on one coaching and online courses that'll help you level up your sex life and relationship with yourself and others in a really big way.

Freya Graf:

So every bit helps cause it ain't

Speaker C:

cheap to put out a sweet podcast, into the world every week out of my own pocket. So I will be undyingly grateful if you support me and my biz financially in any of these ways. And if you like, I'll even give you a mental BJ with my mind from the lounge it itself. Salty. And, I'll pop the links in the show notes. Thank you. Later.

Caroline Lee:

I would love I would be so happy if, if when someone was dying and and when we knew someone was dying in our in our friend group, in our family, in our even if it's, you know, the parent of a friend that we just remember that. And we it's so simple. It sounds so simple that we don't we don't do it because we go, like, what should I do right now? This feels so hard, so awkward. They probably want space. They probably wanna be alone. And yet it's a time that's so lonely. It feels so lonely and so isolating for people to be going into this world of loss and losing someone. And so just to have a friend literally call you and just say, I just remember that you're in it right now, and I'm just thinking of you.

Caroline Lee:

That's it. It doesn't have to be some big thing. And that's, I think, the thing that we we we complicate it and we we because we don't talk about it at all, then we go like, oh, well, then I'll just I'll just I'll just continue to avoid

Freya Graf:

I don't wanna do the wrong thing. Yeah.

Caroline Lee:

Yes. And then it just means that people feel so isolated and so alone. And then, you know, they're it just makes it harder. So just reach out. Just send a text. Even after someone dies, remember them. Check-in with them, like, once a week for a year or longer. Yeah.

Caroline Lee:

I when I go to a friend's, you know, memorial funeral, you know, like, they have, like, the little programs with the with the birth date and the death date on the little program, I like to put those two dates in my Google Calendar and so that they pop up so that it'll say, like, Betty's mom's birthday. And then I just, like, call Betty and go, hey. I just remembered today's your mom's birthday, and today is tender, and I love you. That's it. Same thing with the death day. My calendar says today is your mom's death day, and I just wanted you to know I remember her. I remember you. I remember today is tender for you, and I love you.

Caroline Lee:

Simple. Very simple, but starting to show up for each other in these little ways where we don't go, I'm just gonna back away because I don't know what to do. Just simple ways of saying I remember.

Freya Graf:

Yes. Fuck. I love that. I love that because, yeah, I've really noticed. People drop like flyers. They don't know what to do. They don't know what to say. They don't wanna say the wrong thing.

Freya Graf:

It's uncomfortable for them, and therefore and and also people often think, oh, they've probably got plenty of other people supporting them and checking in. I don't wanna overwhelm them or or just, like, send a platitude. Yeah. Just fucking do it. Oh my god. Because, like, everyone's thinking that, and then the person is actually feeling very, very alone and unsupported. And, like, this major, major, major thing has happened to them, and no one else, like, realizes how weighty that is. So I love like, that just made me tear up what you were saying.

Freya Graf:

Like, just literally being so thoughtful to put little reminders in your phone and check-in. It doesn't have to be a major thing. You're not gonna fuck it up. Just literally letting them know you're thinking of them. Beautiful. Beautiful. There needs to be way more of that. Yeah.

Freya Graf:

Gorgeous. Oh, okay. So we're gonna wrap up. But just before we do, do you have a TMI story for us just to end on a little different note. TMI will rebuild it. To TMI will rebuild it.

Caroline Lee:

Well, it won't be that different. But my my team I was like, what is a TMI fact that I can include like, combine labia and death? And this is what I have for you, which is, that morticians, when someone's died, you know, and you go get their body and take it in to to either cremate it or bury it or whatever it is, morticians use a lot of tampons.

Freya Graf:

My god. No way.

Caroline Lee:

Yeah.

Freya Graf:

For what?

Caroline Lee:

Because a body leaks fluids after it has died, and so they they they gotta plug up the holes.

Freya Graf:

Like, all the holes? Like, butt hole, vagina? Mhmm. Any other holes that I'm missing?

Caroline Lee:

Sometimes depends on the person. Sometimes sometimes nose. Sometimes they'll Okay. You know, use little bits. Oh. Oftentimes, it depends on the body and what the, what the path forward is for that body. So if if, you know, if a body is just gonna be cremated and no one's gonna come visit it, then they won't get it, you know, beautified. But a body, you know, when someone dies, like, their mouth falls open, like, it's very, like, you know, that kind of it doesn't look like it looks in the movies at all.

Caroline Lee:

It looks very different. And so oftentimes, if a mortician is preparing a body to be viewed either in, like, a viewing, like, a open casket or if their family is coming in, they use quite a lot of different tools to make it look nice. So they will use things like super glue. They will u they will they will glue the eyes shut, you know, because the eye the eyes also pop open. Yeah. Wow. So there's a whole lot of different tools that go into making sure that the body isn't leaking and, looking you know, because the eyes open and the mouth open is very, like, it's it's a vibe. Vibes.

Caroline Lee:

It's a vibe. So they they do a whole lot of of, you know, gluing Mhmm. Taping, you know, tampons. So that's that's the TMI is that it gets

Freya Graf:

juicy. Yeah.

Caroline Lee:

And it

Freya Graf:

Epic. It

Caroline Lee:

is pretty juicy. Also, I already mentioned one book by Caitlin Doughty, earlier, the one about from here to eternity, but she also wrote a book called Smoke Gets in Your Eyes, and it is stories from the crematorium because she was a mortician that also, you know, worked in Yeah. A facility that cremated bodies. And she wrote a fascinating book where she talks about all the ins and the outs of all the different things that they're doing. And, you know, the really fascinating things that we don't we kind of miss out on the interesting parts because we don't talk about death at all. But what that means is, you know, some of the things that the, like, random facts around if someone's cremated, you know I don't know if you've ever happened to see this because not everybody is like me that hangs out at crematoriums. But when when a body is cremated, it there's actual, like, whole bones that are left. Like, it's like chunk of bone.

Caroline Lee:

And so then it get the bones get put in this little it's like a little machine that grinds up the bone so that when you go get someone's ashes, you know, we go air quotes Yeah. We go pick up their ashes. It's actually bone that's been ground up so that it's fine. Because otherwise, you would go pick up your your family member's remains and it would literally be a bag of bones.

Freya Graf:

Yep. Yep. Oh my god. Wow. So the ashes, it's more like blood and bone fertilizer that you put on the garden with, like, bone meal. Yep.

Caroline Lee:

That's it.

Freya Graf:

Oh my god. I've gotta read these books. I mean, a part of me is very resistant, but I'm also like, well, if I could just read those books, it would normalize it so much, and even that would make me way more comfortable around death and prepared for, yeah, death and conversations about it. So, yeah, really awesome recommendations. Like, adored this chat. Thank you so much, Caroline. I'm gonna put all your work links in the show notes. You've got a special discount for labia lounge listeners for your, Help My Parents Are Aging course.

Freya Graf:

So I'll put that in the Facebook group for listeners.

Caroline Lee:

Amazing.

Freya Graf:

And, yeah, I would adore, like, having another chat in future at some point when you have time. I know you're a new mom, but, yeah, I really, really appreciate your time and just, like, the tenderness and care and, passion that you hold this work with.

Caroline Lee:

Thank you. Thank you, Farrah. So good to be with you, and I would love to come back sometime. So thank you so much for having me.

Freya Graf:

And that's it, darling hearts. Thanks for stopping by the Labia Lounge. Your bum groove in the couch will be right where you left it, just waiting for you to sink back in for some more double l action next time. If you'd be a dear and subscribe, share this episode or leave a review on iTunes, then you can pat yourself on the snatch because that's a downright act of sex positive feminist activism. And you'd be supporting my vision to educate, empower, demystify and destigmatize with this here podcast. I'm also always open to feedback, topic ideas that you'd love to hear covered, questions or guest suggestions, so feel free to get in touch via my website or over on Insta. You can also send me in TMI stories to be shared anonymously on the pod. My handle is Freya Graff underscore The Labia Lounge.

Freya Graf:

If my account hasn't been deleted for being too sex positive, which, you know, is always a possibility with censorship, but just in case the chronic censorship finally does obliterate my social channels, I'd highly recommend going and joining my mailing list and snagging yourself some fun freebies for the trouble at www.freyagraf.com/freebies. Anyway, later labial legends. See you next

Caroline Lee:

time.