Check Your Privilege - Unveiling Internalised Biases with Milo Hartill
Freya Graf:
This program is brought to you by Pussy Magnets. Welcome. Welcome, my lovely lumps. Or should I say lovely labs? I'm so thrilled to have you here in the Labia Lounge. We're gonna yawn about all things sexuality, womanhood, relationships, intimacy, holistic health, and everything in between. Your legs. Oh, can't help myself. Anyway, we're gonna have Vagelords of real chats with real people about real shit.
Freya Graf:
So buckle up. You're about to receive the sex ed that you never had and have a bloody good laugh while you're at it. Before we dive in, I'd like to respectfully acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land on which I'm recording this, the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin nation. It's an absolute privilege to be living and creating dope podcast content in Naarm, and I pay respect to their elders past, present and emerging. Now, if you're all ready, let's flap and do this. Oh my god. Is there such thing as too many vagina jokes in the one intro? Whatever. It's my podcast.
Freya Graf:
I'm leaving it in. Hey, gang. Just before we jump into this episode, I wanted to offer you an opportunity to access my new mini course for free before I start charging for it in future. It's for people with vulvas and it's quick to complete. It's all about demystifying the female body and pleasure anatomy and getting some basic fundamentals to understand your body better. It's called Pussy Pleasure Secrets, Your Roadmap to Bedroom Bliss. You can grab it on the freebies page of my website or in the show notes. It's a great little free resource to kind of dip your toe in or act as a bit of a taster for my work.
Freya Graf:
So if you've ever been curious about this sort of thing and you just don't know where to start or you want a really quick, easy, accessible, nonthreatening way to get the ball rolling and start working on this stuff, this is a great place to start. Alright. Welcome back, labial legends. Today, I'm really excited to be chatting to a total powerhouse bad bitch who has so much to teach us and open our eyes to with regards to privilege, fatphobia, racial awareness, and intersectionality. We're gonna be chatting with Milo Hartill. Actually, is that how you pronounce your last name? Yeah. You slave. Okay.
Freya Graf:
Cool. Okay. Great. Great. A k a that fat diva, love, who is an actor, model, performer, host, and Black Lives Matter queer, and radical body acceptance activate activate, advocate, and activist. Hey. She's proud. Yeah.
Freya Graf:
No. When there's a slash, advocate activist. Little bit a little bit of a hiccup there. So Milo is a proud African Australian fat queer woman and has championed inclusivity in the queer performing nightlife and burlesque burlesque scene, doing regular shows at clubs and events in both Melbourne and Sydney. As a model, you may have spotted Milo in campaigns for brands including a television commercial for Google, hot damn, what a flex, Frank Body, Bras and Things, Mya with Abby Chatfield. Oh my god. Target and You Swim. And as an actor, Milo has also been in a whole host of epic stage productions and all sorts of fucking fabulous stuff.
Freya Graf:
So, Milo does a lot of radical body acceptance and Black Lives Matter advocacy and activism, which is how I discovered her. And she carries this advocacy into all her fields of work, including work to get more diverse representation in the queer club performing art spaces around Australia. So, I mean, you're just a fucking overachiever, aren't you, babe? I'm really wrapped to have you. Welcome to the Lady Lounge. Pull up a click cushion. Get yourself comfy. Alright. Well, I was struggling to figure out where to even begin, but I suppose something that I only became aware of and, like, you know, Googled the definition of a few years back was this concept of intersectionality and, like, intersectional feminism.
Freya Graf:
So firstly, I wanna, like, chat a bit about that and also just name that I am not fat, black, or queer, and therefore, I can't possibly understand from an embodied and lived experience, what it's like to live in a fat black or queer body. And so, obviously, I may have some blind spots. That's pretty inevitable, as a result of certain privileges that I have that others don't, and I'm really happy to have these pointed out. I'm always striving to be more aware, more sensitive, to the ways in which I can improve my capacity to be an ally and to be a safe space for others who, you know, are living with a different amount and different kinds of privilege on that sort of social justice scale. So I just wanted to, like, preface the interview with that because, like, often I'm like, oh, god. Like, I really wanna do a good job of this. I'm just this, like, skinny little white bitch who has no fucking idea, but I am doing my best. And so I'm really I'm really grateful to get the chance to have guests like you on the podcast.
Freya Graf:
And so I guess maybe let's have a little chat about the you know, I just referred to the social justice scale and intersectionality, to kind of give people an idea of what that is, get them to reflect on, like, where they sit with the different types of privilege that exist. Because, you know, for instance, like, I have an able body. I'm white. I'm slim. I'm straight. I'm cisgendered. So all of those are, like, quite privileged, places to sit on that social justice scale. However, I'm also a woman, which is automatically less privileged than men.
Freya Graf:
I have chronic health challenges. I come from a lower socioeconomic background, and I have, you know, trauma and some some kind of resulting neurodivergence that affects me day to day and how my nervous system operates and how I can actually, like, be in this fucking world. So, yeah, I'd love to hear from you, like, what all of this means to you. Maybe just describe a little bit, like, about intersectionality and why you're passionate about that and and how people can reflect on where they sit on the social justice scale.
Milo:
I think my ideas about intersectionality kind of came from, you know, I'm 24, so Black Lives Matter happened when I was 19. Wow. Doesn't that feel like so long ago? That's like yesterday, 2020, but also I was 19. Amazing. And, you know, looking at lots of conversations about feminism and and being a part of that, being in, you know, musical theater spaces, artists spaces and lots of conversations happening, which were awesome. But I was like, that's not, that doesn't apply to me. That is feminism for thin white women, which is obviously important and we need equality between, you know, men and women. But I was like, I know so many people that don't fall under those umbrellas of gender.
Milo:
I know so many people that like this thing that we're trying to work on as as a construct of the feminism that we kind of know and hear about a lot doesn't apply to black women, doesn't apply to fat women, doesn't apply to disabled women, black. And I think as well, I looked at it a lot through a lens of diversity that I see on stages and screens and in advertising. So that's, you know, where I work, where I live, what's important to me. And I was like, you know, peep like, production companies would cast a show and there'd be 2 black people in it or there'd be 2 people of color in the whole production, and they'd be like, we've done it. We've solved diversity. And I'd be like, there are no fat people in this, no disabled people in this. Like, all the queer people that I know are in this show don't talk about it because they wanna continue to get cast and stuff. Like, you haven't done it.
Milo:
And also, you know, maybe I'm seeing someone who looks like me, but of the 2 people, they're both x y zed. And so most of the other people of color sitting in the audience don't see themselves up there. And I think as well, a lot of this conversation of intersectionality came for me because people's discussions of feminism were always just, how do we make men and women equal? And I was like, that's just like the tip of the iceberg. I think as well, lots of people that I went to uni with and lots of my teachers would say that they were proud feminists. And then I would ask them about their opinions on Black Lives Matter and issues that are facing African, black, Aboriginal, First Nations people in our country. And they would just have no idea, you know, even remotely what I was talking about, let alone the nuances and intricacies of it. And I think my ideas of intersectional feminism have kind of come about because it's like, okay, if we achieve this thing for white, straight, cisgendered women, then how do we achieve that for everybody else? And, you know, I think it's really, really been clear in the last few years seeing how people responded to Black Lives Matter, how people are now responding to Palestine. Like the NDIS has just removed period products or proposing to remove period products from NDIS funding like fuckers.
Milo:
It's just crazy. And I think that the idea of it's funny to me that people that claim to be proud feminists don't understand that, like, to be a proud feminist, you need to be championing all people becoming equal, not just people that are like you becoming. Mhmm. Mhmm. Mhmm.
Freya Graf:
Yeah. I feel like that's what
Milo:
I have to say on that.
Freya Graf:
Yeah. Yeah. Thanks. I doubt it. Totally. Like, you know, and and I think the the key piece in there that I wanna, like, extrapolate on is, like, people have this idea of what equality is, and they equate it. There's a lot of words, but they equate equality with equity. And they're not the same fucking thing.
Freya Graf:
And equality is, like, you know, giving everyone the same resources or treatment or tools or whatever, but not acknowledging that they've come from a totally different starting place. And so giving, like, you know, the like, I I think of this, maybe you've seen it. It's like a little, like, drawing, like, comic kind of graphic to kind of illustrate it where there's, like, a fence and everyone's trying to get a look over the fence. It's like they're trying to get a leg up in life. And some people in this drawing are really tall, some are really short, some are disabled, some, you know, coming from a really different starting place, and they've been all all given the same box to stand on. And so the tall person standing on the box can see way over the fence. The short person still can't see over the fence. And then and that's, like, that's equality.
Freya Graf:
And then you think about the fact that how it actually is is, like, some of the tall people get, like, 5 boxes to stand on, and then they're really tall. And then some of the shorter people in this illustration you know, handicap to privilege, they are dug into a hole in the ground, so they're even lower down and definitely can't see over the fence. And then what equity would be is, like, taking into consideration, oh, that short person needs more than one box to see over the fence. Oh, they're handicapped. They've got either, you know, less privilege because of the color of their skin, or they have a disability, or they have less capacity to earn as much money. And so therefore, they need 5 boxes so that they're standing just as high above the fence and getting a look over. And that tall person, you know, doesn't quite need as many boxes. Not, you know, it's just it's like, it's a very, like, helpful visual way of understanding.
Freya Graf:
Like, equality means fucking shit if you're not taking into consideration all of these other factors, and that's where that intersectionality comes in, you know, because some people have privilege in some departments and then not in others. Some people have like multiple that, you know, like, like with you, queer, fat, and black. Those are 3 different areas on the social justice scale where you will be treated differently. You will potentially have less opportunities, less doors opening for you. People might see you as less worthy of love or respect because of their, you know, prejudices and, like, it's fucked. So I kind of like to explain that to people when they're thinking that they're like an ally or they're like a feminist or whatever whatever. And, actually, they have these just gaping blind spots. Actually, how to fucking do
Milo:
I think, sorry, go. Yeah. In terms of intersectionality, it's like to claim to be intersectional, you have to be understanding of those things well read on those things, willing to speak up against those things, or at least to like, you know, check-in on your friends that are a part of those groups that
Freya Graf:
Yeah.
Milo:
Are privy to less privilege.
Freya Graf:
Yeah. Big time. Yeah. And that's something I'd love to ask you about is, like, how do we be better allies? How do we become more kind of aware of the nuances and the complexities of, privilege and intersectionality. How do we become more safe spaces? Because, you know, I think people, they wanna do better and they they try and, like, myself included, like, this is I'm still really learning and working on this stuff. I'm definitely not an expert, and I definitely don't do it perfectly all the time at all. And then there's people that are even less aware and, you know, have a lifetime of societal conditioning and and prejudices that they may not even be aware of to begin with. So, yeah, I'd love to and and people that like something that I, remember just being like, oh my god.
Freya Graf:
It was a bit of a light bulb moment for me a bunch of years ago Was hearing about, like, how people people who might have either, a disability or, in a fat body or whatever else Don't love the inspiration porn of, like, fucking really privileged people being, like, go you. Like, good on you for being at the gym. Or, like, you go girl. Like, you're so you're such an inspiration. And that's probably the extent of, like, they're, like, you know, quote, unquote, allyship. Like, they think that they're being, you know, a friend to to the fat people by being, like, high five. You fucking I'm so proud of you for exercising, like, or or whatever or, you know, for people with a with a physical disability, like, achieving some, I don't know, sports award or something. It's like, yeah, that kind of inspiration porn.
Freya Graf:
Sometimes that's that's the extent of, like, where people get to with with trying to be aware. And so I'd love to hear from you, like, some of the blind spots that people without, without, you know, much awareness of this sort of privileged stuff have, like the traps we might fall into, the shit that we might say.
Milo:
I mean I mean, I think the best ways to be an ally, like, first and foremost is if you see someone perpetuating problematic behavior to call it out and not leave it up to the person that is experiencing, you know, whatever fat phobia, racism, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. Because normally, I mean, I am obviously so well spoken, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. And I still, you know, when something racist happens, go through a moment of shock of just like, woah, that just happened to me. Like the other day, me and my friends were walking walking somewhere and some guys were passed and just screamed the n word at us. And like, I'm so black, you know, well, well read, well spoken speaking about these things. And I still was just like, woah, that guy just said the n word. That's crazy. And like, in that moment, I needed my friends to and they did, you know, be with me and be like, hey, you okay? But also I needed them to be the ones to be like, fuck you, man.
Milo:
Don't say that. Yeah. And so I think that's big. I think being well read, like trying to keep up with things that are going on in the world and calling that out and, you know, analyzing your own reactions to things, because I think
Freya Graf:
I don't
Milo:
remember where I read this. It was a wonderful think piece I read in 2020, but it's like the idea that we're kind of all born racist fat phobic, because that is, you know, that's what society in the world kind of feeds you is to be like that. Even if you don't think you are, like,
Freya Graf:
you have to
Milo:
actively you have to be actively anti racist. You can't just not be racist. So you're not fatphobic or you're not able to because because you believe you are like you have to actively do that. Yeah. It's the
Freya Graf:
water we're swimming in.
Milo:
Exactly. It's like you have to you have to be well educated or well diversified in your life. I think making sure that the media you ingest, the people you follow from diverse walks of life. If everybody that you follow is a thin white person, then that's kind of going to be your range of knowledge. And that's going to be all that you hear about in terms of lived experience. And I really do think that, you know, that that is important to make sure that like, if you're, I remember seeing a thing that was like, if all of your friends are white, that's strange. You, all your friends should not be white. That's weird.
Milo:
If all of your friends are able-bodied, that's weird. All your friends should not be able-bodied. Like we have such a diverse walk of life. And I think the people that you keep around you is a really good example of what you deem to be good people and what you deem to be right and what you wanna associate yourself with. And if you're someone that wants to be actively not racist, fat phobic, ableist, homophobic, transphobic, you have to be you have to have those people in your life and you have to show that you are that you are a safe space for that. And I think the words can only do so much, but onwards, I think thinking about the way that you speak about things and that you speak about yourself and the biases that you carry is important. If you are fine with other people being fat, but not with you, but not with the idea of yourself being fat, that's probably not that's probably not conducive of being a good friend and ally to fat people. And something that I think really sticks with me as well.
Milo:
I heard Carly Findlay say this once, and I think I then stretched it to also including fat people. But disability is, it's like a oppressed group that is not blocked off from anyone. Like you can't be born white and end your life black, but you can start your life able-bodied and end your life to say and like your life finishes and you're disabled. Like it's disability and, and becoming fat are not exclusive groups. Like they're both groups that anybody can become a part of. And I think that people really forget that, like, like, they're both, like, you know, everyone I feel like has had an experience where you take a medication and you gain weight or you stop taking a medication and you gain weight or, you know, you eat certain foods or you don't do something or you do do something or you have like my sign for me that my depression is getting bad is if I start gaining weight, like I, my body just hold on to things in a different way when I'm not feeling good mentally. And it's like they, they're non exclusive groups. Anybody can be a part of it.
Milo:
And I feel like people's fear of becoming fat or disabled comes from the ways that they think about those groups of people being like, I don't want to be a part of that and I don't want to get treated in that way. But it wouldn't be something to fear if people weren't so horrific to those groups of people. I think they're my they're my quick, fast, surefire allied tips.
Freya Graf:
Yeah. Yeah. And that's so it's so bang on and so valuable. Like, this this and I'll I've got some questions, like, later around, like, internalized, you know, fat phobia or racism or whatever that's, like, potentially more insidious and sort of, you know, deep rooted and sneaky that some people might not even be aware of having. But I loved what you said about trying to diversify, like, you know, your friendships and failing that. Because I guess, like, for me, I'm like, oh, some people are so introverted and some people like the area that I grew up. Luckily, I moved. I moved to Melbourne, which is way more diverse, and now my friends are a lot more diverse.
Freya Graf:
But I grew up in a tiny little country town that was so fucking white and so just straight, straighty 180 kinda thing. And I didn't really have access to, like, diverse groups of people, and so all of my friends did wind up being just sort of, you know, a bunch of white people. And then when I moved to Melbourne, that that sort of changed, but, you know, making friends and meeting people in in diverse ways can be tricky if, you know, if you're very introverted or you have social anxiety or you have a particular like, I'm self employed, so I don't get out much, and I don't kind of have colleagues or, you know, I didn't go to uni where I met a lot of different people. So there's there's a slightly less kind of scope for me to meet lots of different people from different walks of life because I kinda just hang out in, like, some pretty similar spots. Yeah. But I think, like, you know, the people that you follow, the books that you read, the podcasts you listen to, all of these sort of influences, this input, it's really important to, at the very least, make sure that is more diverse, so you're not just kinda living in this echo chamber. And something that I kinda did recently for, I was doing, like, a a, like, racial sensitivity awareness training. And this amazing facilitator, Kawhi, he gave us his homework to, like, find someone on the complete opposite end of the social justice, like, privilege spectrum to us Mhmm.
Freya Graf:
And chat with them and and sort of just try to, like, get to know, like, their life experience, and how they get around living in the body that they're in and and reflect on that and things. And I noticed that I was I I was really uncomfortable with how that almost made me and this was just part of the thing that we all unpacked and he was kind of aiming for as well, as a facilitator of that work. I started noticing that I almost, started seeing people that were, you know, maybe had black, brown skin or were disabled or something as, like, this object of of of, like, fulfilling my homework. And I was, like, feeling gross and uncomfortable about, like, wanting to approach them to, like, get something from them by being, like, hey, I wanna, like, pick your brains and, like, have this conversation about about your fucking, like, lifelong racial trauma. You know? And I I didn't feel like me as a white person could kind of approach someone and do that and still be a safe space. So there's yeah. I guess there's a way to there's a way to do it, and and it was an interesting kind of experiment to, to notice in me that that felt confronting, and I didn't wanna objectify these people just because that we were being asked to find someone different to us and and kind of, you know, use use that as as part of our homework or this experiment. But, yeah, also what you're saying about the, you know, being the one to call out stuff and stand up for your friends or for someone you see on a you see on a train or whatever, is so fucking important because the person who that, like, you know, racial aggression is directed to, for instance, or the person who's got, you know, who's got something being directed to them, like, that is that is gonna be triggering a trauma response in their nervous system.
Freya Graf:
That is going to be shutting down a part of them. That means it's very difficult for them to, you know, especially after a lifetime of having to try to do this, to stand up for themselves or speak up. So to kinda just take that off their plate, because they're already having this, like, awful experience of receiving, you know, someone saying the n word to them, for instance, like you the other day. That's, like, someone saying the n word to them, for instance, like you the other day, that's, like, the very least that that you can do. And also putting yourself as the more privileged person potentially if you're in a white body or a thin body or whatever, putting yourself in the line of fire instead so that you're taking the brunt of some of that for them rather than them having to not only receive that aggression and then also try to, like, say something back or handle it or whatever. Yeah. It's like, no. No.
Freya Graf:
No. No. No. It's like yeah. So I love that you mentioned that. Thanks. Yeah. There was a lot lot of lot of word salad just going on then on my behalf.
Freya Graf:
There's there's so many things I wanna, like, talk about and address. But,
Milo:
No. No. Thanks. I've I've let's see. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Perspective.
Freya Graf:
Yeah. Yeah. I'm, like, curious to hear because I think something that can help with, you know, erasing some of the blind spots because, you know, people with privilege often can't say it. They don't know they have the fucking privilege because I've got it. They've never really had to and that's where, like, you know, I think with the category of, like, disability or becoming fat, like, people who have had privilege in those areas prior can then get a, like, lived experience of, like, that privilege being taken away, and and then it would probably draw it into their focus. But I think, you know, failing that if you are just kinda getting around with this sort of, you know, either beauty privilege or thin privilege or white privilege, a really great way to start to highlight some of the blind spots and get you to reflect is, like, hearing from people about their experience. Like, it it's so unbelievably shocking to me that someone whipped out the n word out of nowhere to you, but that's because, like, I never see that happen because I'm not black. So, like, for you, it's probably still shocking, but it's also, like, you're maybe a bit more used to that stuff happening.
Freya Graf:
So I'd love to hear from you, like, some of the ways that you experience life differently because you are in a fat body or because you are queer, because you are a woman of color, things that, like, maybe someone like me would just never experience or even know what's going on because I don't see it. Hey, baby babes. Sorry to interrupt. I just had to pop my head into the lounge here and mention another virtual lounge that I'd love you to get around. It's the Labia Lounge Facebook group that I've created for listeners of the potty to mingle in. There you'll find extra bits and bobs like freebies, behind the scenes, or discounts for offerings from guests who have been interviewed on the podcast. They'll also be, hopefully, inspiring, thought provoking conversations and support from a community of labial legends like yourself. My vision for this is that it becomes a really supportive, educational, and hilarious resource for you to have more access to me and a safe space to ask questions you can't ask anywhere else.
Freya Graf:
So head over to the links in the show notes or look up the Labia Lounge group in Facebook, and I'll see you in there. And now back to the episode.
Milo:
Well, I mean, it's kind of all the ways that that you would expect. Like, it's, you know, going to the shops. I like, you know, I'm hyper aware of what I am acting like because I'm like, I don't wanna get accused of stealing. I always am like, when I'm out and about in public, make sure that I have all of the things that I need to have to, like, be on the train and and there and prepared. I like I remember getting on the train as a teenager with some friends, and I'd lost my ticket, and I, like, broke down. I was, like, oh, no. And my friend was, like, why are you so stressed? Just tell them that you lost it. And I was, like, I'm still gonna get fined.
Milo:
And she was, like, just take mine. I'll just say that I lost mine. And I was, like, I just could not ever imagine not getting in trouble for doing something like that.
Freya Graf:
You
Milo:
know, like being a fat person, lots of public architecture is not made with someone with a butt as big as mine. Like, traveling is just like a stressful time when you're a fat person, even just for like the way people treat you sometimes, like, I'm sitting next to the fat person. And I mean, we're seeing crazy amounts of homophobia in the world at the moment. Like, you know, the go the government's not willing to take a stance on conversion therapy and it's 2024, you know, it's like, yeah. I mean, there's, there's lots of there's so many ways. And I mean, I feel like it doesn't take much for the imagination to kinda go there. And if the if your imagination is, you know, I feel like people listening to this and you and I would feel like we are woke and, you know, allies slash members of those communities. But imagine that you're not that kind of person, and it's just like shouting the n word to someone on the street is nothing to you.
Milo:
You know, calling someone a faggot is nothing to you, but like, yeah, you know, all those, all those kinds of things happen to me. And I mean, sometimes it's not, it's not indicative. I mean, you know what? Actually I take that back. Not, none of it is indicative of me. Like it's just how people want to treat someone that is like me or looks like me. But yeah, I mean, it all, it's all based on other people and their prejudice and lack of wanting to, you know, actively wanting to make sure that there is no connect with me and them. Be like, I'm nothing like that. You're this, you're that, and I'm not those things.
Freya Graf:
Yeah. Yep. Yep. Something that I feel like was quite shocking to me a few years ago. Like, I had a friend who was, like, talking about fat people, like, automatically assuming that they're lazy and they're less well, they're just, like, less of a human in some way, and that it's, like, their fault. And and I just could not believe he, you know, he's an intelligent guy, and I just couldn't even believe I was hearing it because I suppose, yeah, I'm in this woke bubble. And I, like, forget that some people still hold these these views, you know, and see see certain people as less deserving of respect or love or time. And then, you know, a really confronting thing, that I've, like, faced and reflected in myself is, like, because, like you said, it's the water we're swimming in.
Freya Graf:
We are born into this sort of society with all of the prejudices and and racism and fatphobia and everything like that in the media that I grew up consuming in the nineties. Like, gee whiz, talk about junky chic. Like, you know, like, the thin the thin stuff and and the kind of, like, ideal default body is, like, the baseline of, like, this is beauty, that we're told to conform to. Like, all of these influences, whether you consciously agree with them or wanna identify with them or not, like, they still affect you. And, you know, I still kind of, like, would notice that I was probably less likely to and this is like I feel disgusted in myself, so it's pretty vulnerable to admit this. But, you know, a few years ago when I was reflecting on this stuff, I noticed I was probably less likely to talk to, a really fat person at a party than maybe, like, a thin attraction person. And I was less motivated to kinda make an effort. And, you know, you just start thinking, like, this is what this is what they're talking about when they're, like, we feel invisible.
Freya Graf:
And it's with ageism as well. It's, you know, like, beauty privilege has a whole bunch of facets. But it's really hectic when you start admitting to yourself that even though, like, you don't back it, you still it's in you a little bit. Some of this, like, either fat phobia or, like, sort of, like, you know, really really covert undercover little bits of racism that you wouldn't have even been aware of. And you don't identify with being racist, but it's like you you've kind of been brainwashed, from all angles from the moment you came
Milo:
out of the womb. Like, I don't think anybody. I see. Obviously, I think, okay, that's a hyperbole. I think a very small amount of people would identify boldly and bravely with racism, fat phobia, ableism that because people just don't. They're like, I'm not racist. Aboriginal people are just like that. I'm not racist.
Milo:
Black people are just more likely to steal. I'm not racist, but Asian people are smarter than everybody. I'm not prejudiced, but Jewish people are running the world. Like, it's just people really do believe those things
Freya Graf:
to be
Milo:
true because it's the way that media is made. It's the way that people in positions of power talk about those groups of people. It's the way people's parents talk about those groups of people. Like it's so insidious. And I mean, even like, you know, like my, my family believe in me and support me, but I definitely think some things my family have said, I've gone, I've gone, you know, like that's me that you're talking about. And they're like, but you're not like all the rest of them. And I'm like, no, but I am, I am like, oh, and I think people forget that. And I mean, like, even you talking about, you know, like your, your own internalized biases with fat people.
Milo:
It's like, you know, that's something that I think I deal with in all of my walks of life is like people thinking that you're less able to do something or you're not capable of doing something because you're fat, because you're on black,
Freya Graf:
because I'm gay. And it's
Milo:
like, I just happen to be those things, like a big, a big thing I used to say when people, I was like, like my, my partner, my, my housemate, lots of people that I'm with and around. I'm like, I do more physical things than all of those people. They are just skinny. Like me and my partner eat pretty much the same thing. And then my partner, bless their heart, not an exercise queen. And, like, I am just, like, literally double their size. Like, there's no piece of putting around that. Like, I am I am that size.
Milo:
And I mean, even language like. Yeah, yeah. I think it's just like it's just it's just the way that the world is. And I think we all actively have to work towards changing those beliefs even like me using pussyfooting around. Like, I feel like that is born out of misogyny. True.
Freya Graf:
Yeah.
Milo:
A part
Freya Graf:
of lingo.
Milo:
And I mean as well, I think there's a really unique, there is quite unique racism, fat phobia, misogyny, homophobia, ableism, the list goes on. That happens in our Australian culture, like how Aussie who gives a shit, nothing's that serious culture where it's like, nothing's that serious, but you did say that. And it's like, oh, well, it's, you know, larrikin, just a joke mentality. And it's like Yeah. Until when until when is it not just a joke anymore?
Freya Graf:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No. Totally. And it's it's cool that you pointed out, like, that slang because I feel like I grew up in a small country town in Australia very much that kind of, like, don't take yourself too seriously. Like, lots of of that, you know, taking the piss kind of humor. I use a lot of slang, and and I was a bit of a tomboy, and I wanted to fit in with the boys growing up.
Freya Graf:
So I I had a lot of, like, slang in my vernacular that I've just been, like, systematically realizing as I say, oh, nah. Nah. Nah. Nah. I can't say that. That's not really okay anymore. And I I never even realized. It was just so normalized, you know.
Freya Graf:
Like, all of the slang in high school, you know, oh, that's fucking gay or, like, whatever. Like, it it wasn't because I was homophobic. It was because that was the slang, and that's, you know but as as you're saying, like, you can't just be, like, well, I'm not racist, and that's enough. You have to actively and it you know, sure. It's a pain in the ass. I've had to, like, try to train myself to and it's, like, you know, trying to be, proactive and intentional about the pronouns that we use. Like, yes, it's inconvenient to have to try to say they when you've known this person as a her your whole life. But you know what's more inconvenient is, like, life for them.
Freya Graf:
You know, like more. So it's, like, it's a small price to pay and effort to make.
Milo:
It's inconvenient until it becomes a part of your practice. Like, it feels inconvenient because you're not used to it. But like, yeah, if you never wiped your ass and started doing that, that would feel convenient until Exactly. Part of your practice.
Freya Graf:
Yeah. Yeah. And it's just, like, it's just a small like, it's a bit of effort to make to make somebody else feel seen and respected and safer around you and heard and, like, you know, like, compared to, like, the pain that it's inflicting for someone to just be constantly misgendered for, like, most of their life and in most spaces, you know, for you to just have to try to and and it's like a bit of a problem I have with, like, a lot of a lot of boomers are very set in their ways, and, I can see why. Like, I probably was like that back in the day too before I had more understanding and had more diverse friends and had heard about different experiences from them and being like, oh, fuck. Like, I need to check myself. So I think, yeah, like, it's, you know, it's work and it's effort and it's ongoing, but it's like, you gotta do that guys. Like, you know, because it is yeah. It's a drop in the bucket given that that we live in the world and the way things are.
Freya Graf:
There's still so far to go. There's so much work to do, but, you know, we can all be doing our own little bit. Yeah. And yeah. That's why I'm really grateful to, like, be able to have these conversations with someone like you and
Milo:
I think
Freya Graf:
admit that I've got blind spots and I fuck up. And, you know as well as me
Milo:
as well. Like, I think lots of people are like, you know, lots of people that, you know, maybe are not my friends anymore, but that I used to be friends with and they'd be like, so what? You're just perfect. And I'm just like, no, not at all. Like, I fuck up all the time. Like, acknowledging that is a part of this. Like, nobody is nobody is born knowing everything. Like it takes work and effort and accountability. And like, you know, I didn't grow up in a rural town, but I grew up in Western Australia
Freya Graf:
and
Milo:
I'm from the south, which is famously, you know, north of the river I was
Freya Graf:
just living there.
Milo:
Hoity toity and fancy and south of the river is some from Mandrag. Like, it's not. I didn't grow up rich. I didn't grow up knowing everything. And, like, a part of that is, I mean, I did grow up in a family that was very, you know, tertiary educated that that that that that that
Freya Graf:
that that that that that that
Milo:
that that that that that that that that
Freya Graf:
that that that that that that that
Milo:
that that that I like it's it's effort and yeah, I think a lot of my prejudices I think in in ways is everyone is prejudiced against everything. It's like you moved to Melbourne and you're like, I'm not being called an N word and then a faggot on the street every day. What is this utopia? But I think yeah, I think, I think that there was a lot of prejudice about a lot of people when I was growing up and being this face of a lot of movements in some way or another and voice and a lot of movements in some way or another, it's like, you know, I'm 24. Like I don't know everything. And especially when I started talking about this stuff, I was 19, 18, like, I don't know shit. My frontal lobe was not even close to being developed, but a lot of it is just like being accountable and not being afraid to say I was wrong. I'm sorry. And with more information, my opinion of that has shifted.
Milo:
And now that I'm aware that this is a thing, the way that I want to advocate for this will be like, I think I was speaking on a podcast last week about the shift I had from being a voice for body positivity to radical body acceptance being like with more information I had, I was like, oh, I don't think that everyone has to love themselves to be deserving of respect. So I think body acceptance is more, I accept my body. I accept your body. You deserve respect end of the day. Yeah. Yeah. End of sentence.
Freya Graf:
Yeah. Yeah. I've got, I interviewed this amazing person about body neutrality, and and beauty privilege, beauty labor, and things like that. And that differentiation between, like, you know, body love and body acceptance or neutrality, like, is is a good thing to think about, because, you know, it's a little bit more realistic as well. And, yeah. Yeah. I think I saw I think I saw some clips from that podcast of you speaking, and I was like, fuck yeah. Get it, girl.
Freya Graf:
Loved loved how you were, like, articulating all of that. But that could be a whole episode of itself. I'd love to fit in the segment get pregnant and die. Don't have sex, because you will get pregnant. Don't have sex in a fishbowl position. Don't have don't have sex standing up. Just don't do it. Promise? Hey.
Freya Graf:
Carried away with my next line of questioning. Hey. So do you have a sex ed story for us from fucking down south in WA, which I actually lived down south in WA for a few years, and I couldn't fucking believe the culture shock because it is racist as fuck and homophobic and all the things.
Milo:
And I was like, woah.
Freya Graf:
Albany.
Milo:
Oh my god. Yeah. That is well down south. Yeah, had some family friends in Albany and went on the trip there and I was like, mom, we need to go home. I don't I don't feel good.
Freya Graf:
I know. I know. I got sexually harassed on the street, like, day 1. I was like, how am I? I wanna go back to Melbourne.
Milo:
Yeah. Scary. Yep. I think I don't think I have anything like I think we so I went to an art school, like a musical theater. Like, I went to, like, high school, high school.
Freya Graf:
Oh my god.
Milo:
And so I think we got more than most. I graduated high school in 2017. But my first job as a model when I was 18, I just moved to Melbourne, scouted on the street. And the agent who scouted me, he was like, I have this job and they're looking for people that look like you, which I which I later found out was look like a lesbian, which I went so true. So I'd like shaved shaved head one. And so my first job was direct. I was a model for direct. And we were getting asked, like, I didn't realize that a part of the job.
Milo:
I was like, I'm prepared to embody this character and do this ad and be, you know, lesbian in this thing. And then a part of it was, like, interview, like, interview questions. And so people being asked about, you know, how do you use condoms? How do you engage with your ex? And I was kinda like, well, I don't really use protection because I'm a lesbian. What what are lesbians you? And I mean, I'm bi, but, you know, I was just getting into character. And they were like, the our videographer, like, goes, what the fuck are you talking about? You use a fucking dental dam. And, like, he puts his puts the camera back up, and I was like, what? And he was like, a dental dam. It's like a lesbian condom. Like, you just whip it out and he's like, I used it whenever I had one night stand and I eat a girl out, I just I've got a few dental dams in my side drawer.
Milo:
And I was like, I have no idea what that is. So then I, like, finished my shoot, went home and was like, what is a dental dam? And I just had no idea that there was protection that you could use as a lesbian and that you could make it like, I mean, obviously not as good as a real one, but, like, you could make dance with dance out of glad wrap. And, yeah, I just, like, complete I just had no idea. I had no idea. And I, you know, was a bit of a goody 2 shoes in school, so I always wanted to do well in all of my subjects. And, yeah, I was like, if anybody was gonna know that that was a thing, it was the closeted lesbian in high school would have been paying attention to that. And it just was not a part of our No. Education at all.
Freya Graf:
No. No way. I didn't I did not know what a dental dam was until way after high school for sure. And, I mean, I still don't know anyone that uses them. I don't think it's all that common. I don't know. Because, like, I think a lot of people aren't super across that so much. Like, when you think of condoms, you think of, you know, penis condoms.
Freya Graf:
Have you used dental dams since? I've never never used them, but, like, does it still feel great? Like, I'm so curious. Excuse this quick interruption. I'm shamelessly seeking reviews and 5 star ratings for the potty because as I'm sure you've noticed by now, it's pretty fab. And the more people who get to hear it, the more people I can help with it. Reviews and ratings actually do make a big difference to this little independent podcaster, and it's really easy to just quickly show your support by taking that simple act of either leaving 5 stars for the show on Spotify or, even better, writing a written review and leaving 5 stars over on Apple Podcasts. Or if you're a real overachiever, you can do them both. That would be mad. If you're writing a review though, just be sure to use g rated words because despite the fact that this is a podcast about sexuality, words like sex can be censored and your review won't make it through the gates.
Freya Graf:
Lame. Anyway, I would personally recommend doing that right now while you remember just to get on top of it and let me know you're with me on this journey. Thanks, gang. Enjoy the rest of the epi.
Milo:
I mean, it feels a little different, but in the same way that, like, a condom feels a little different, but not Yeah. I mean, I'd rather feel a little different and not contract an STI that could have been avoided than not.
Freya Graf:
Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Oh, that's a great story. Thank you. Thank you. I've always been so so curious about them.
Freya Graf:
So it's cool to hear the yeah. That they're getting getting used because, you know,
Milo:
well, I feel like I've never gone and purchased them. I don't really know where you would go and buy them, but I obviously do lots of performing at, you know, queer sex events and like at pride events. And I've been really lucky that I've kept my supply by just getting like free things or things. We like, I'm gonna grab that. Thank you. I mean, that one thing here. And I mean, me and my partner together don't don't use them, but, you know, we're we're open. And I think I'm like, we need I need I need to know that I'm gonna be safe and that you're gonna be safe.
Milo:
And this is a great way.
Freya Graf:
Exactly.
Milo:
There's a great way to do that.
Freya Graf:
Yeah. Rock on. Love it. Fuck. Yeah. Dental dams?
Milo:
Fuck. Yeah.
Freya Graf:
I'm just, like, so straight. So I just I've never even thought about it. I'm, like, I have not been in the past, have not been particularly safe with, protection. I was just, like, I'm in the pill, whatever. I'm, like, you know, obviously, nowadays, I'm across it. But,
Milo:
well, my fear has never been getting pregnant. Like, even when I have slept with men, I'm like I mean, probably not the best ethos and probably not the best for your body, but I'm like, I'll just get an abortion if I get pregnant. I just don't wanna get an SSDI. Which is crazy.
Freya Graf:
Yeah. I was the opposite. I was like, oh my god. The like, I definitely don't wanna have to get an abortion. I don't wanna have to go through that because it totally terrified me. And but I but I was like, yeah. You can kinda just get, like, some antibiotics or whatever,
Milo:
can't you? If you get
Freya Graf:
the clap. Yeah. It's actually wild that I have never, somehow have never contracted an STI or been pregnant. So Wow. And and it's not to say that I've been perfect with all of my safe sex practices. That's for sure. Pretty good these days. But back in the day, fuck.
Freya Graf:
I I don't know how I don't have, like, all of the STS. Anyway, so something that I wanted to kinda highlight is, like, I think a misconception or something that people often, like, don't fully grasp around privilege. You know, because I think a lot of people don't even realize that they have it in some departments. It's like, you know, they think that having privilege means you have, like, more benefits or, like, perks. Like, it's about the perks and the benefits and having, like, lots of money or lots of whatever. But it's not always about the presence or absence of, like, perks and benefits that indicates a privilege or lack of privilege. It can actually also and potentially even more commonly be the presence of obstructions or challenges or barriers that actually make life harder and harm our ability to achieve certain perks or positive things or benefits in our life. You know, that that would come more easily to people with privilege.
Freya Graf:
So it's not just, you know, like the end of the spectrum where you've got all this great stuff and perks. It's also the end of the spectrum where, like, you actively have less, and there are barriers and obstacles in your way to achieve things that other people take for granted. Yeah. Like, do you have any kind of examples of that in your experience or life that, you know, maybe people wouldn't have thought of or been aware of that spring to mind?
Milo:
I mean, the main thing is just like how people treat you. Yeah. Like, how how how you get treated by people and by other people and, like, you know, like, I feel like a a barrier with with being fat is like, and with all of them, it's just like how people expect you to do stuff, how people expect you to do your job, how people treat you when you're out and about, the questions you get asked that other people wouldn't even almost have to deal with. Like, I remember we had there's this scholarship you had to do at my uni and so part of the course you had to apply for this scholarship. I didn't wanna do it. I was like a person of color has never won this. Why would I apply for it? Like, can't be fucked, but we had to do it as a part of our degree. And, like, everyone got asked questions.
Milo:
We all got asked questions. And I I don't ask the question I got asked in our interview section was, like, how would this benefit you as a person of color? And I was like, I'm the only person of color in my course. Like, I know nobody else is being asked this question. Why do I have to answer this? Like, what kind of fucking charity shit you wanted me to go, please, myself? Like, I really as a person of color, it would mean I can, like, I don't wanna, why do I have to do that? I don't wanna do that. I think as well, like the things that you're just expected to do. And, you know, I, I, in the line of work, I do kind of sign up for talking about diversity and talking about my experiences. But it's like, in lots of jobs, you're like being a person of color, being queer, being fat means that you're expected to do free emotional labor to unpack that experience. And like, I am a public speaker and I advocate for this stuff.
Milo:
So, you know, I sign up for that. But there are there are some instances where I'm in my, you know, I'm doing a musical theater job and I'm here to do being an entertainer and they're like, can you speak for this panel? And it's like, sure, my rights for doing cultural consultancy are this much money. And if you want me to do it in front of a crowd, there's this fee and dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, and it's like, oh, you don't just wanna talk about it so everyone can hear about it. No. I don't wanna just talk about my promo for you, actually. No. I don't wanna do that. Are you gonna make fucking old mate do any of this kind of hard labor? You're gonna make him research? No.
Milo:
So I'm not doing it. Yep. I think as well, like and I mean, that's coming from a very privileged standpoint of, like, having access to be able to be asked to do something like that due to having a job that is dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. But I think just like expectations of what you're gonna be like, that people just don't have of white people. Like, even like people like you're really well spoken for an African person. It's like, my family are half white. I grew up in Western Australia. Like, as like, what do you mean?
Freya Graf:
I don't even believe someone would say that. Like, what a fucking neg. What a backhanded compliment. Like A 100%. Yeah. And
Milo:
You're smart for a black girl. You're hot for a black girl. You're really intelligent for black girl. You're really well spoken for a black girl. It's like no, I'm not. Like, I'm just another guy. I'm just another person. I think that's as well an obstacle is that people like just you're just not like, I really am just another person and people expect you to be this, like, inspiration.
Freya Graf:
Yeah. They exotify it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I love, I love what you said about like just being expected to automatically be an activist because you're black or queer or, and like, yes, this is actually your line of work, but, like, to be expected to do the emotional labor, automatically is something I've definitely heard of happening a lot and that's quite quite like what was unfair and it's like, you know, bordering pretty traumatic sometimes when just by virtue of the color of your skin, you kind of and and this is why I felt really uncomfortable with, like, approaching someone of color or someone, with with less privilege than me to do this bit of homework because I was like, oh, that's kind of icky for me to just expect that they will be okay with and and just sort of be expected to do this emotional labor of, like, unpacking all this racial stuff with me to help me understand. It's like, why the fuck? Like, you are already being treated differently and having to live in a different reality to me that has inherently more challenges because of where you see it on that social justice spectrum. Why the fact that you then also kinda have to do extra emotional labor to make me feel
Milo:
to me k
Freya Graf:
or more comfortable or, understand you better. Like, it should be on me to figure, you know and and luckily, there are people who do what you do and are open to coming on a podcast like this and talking about this, for the benefit of, you know, the community. But, like, just your average person, like, they don't wanna be fucking bothered with this shit and have to, like, then, you know, it's just and it's and I I kind of have, like, a it's totally different, but it's like a flavor of this when people find out the line of work that I'm in and immediately expect me to, like, give them all this free advice about their sex life and just be, like, an ear to listen to their shit.
Milo:
That's my job, though. I'm not giving that to you for free.
Freya Graf:
I know. And it's like you can you can be passionate about sort of disseminating this information and helping people understand and unpack things. You can you can wanna do that for a whole bunch of really, really great reasons, and you can also wanna be paid for it. And you can also decide you don't wanna fucking do that on queue for anyone that asks for it because, sure, it's great that they wanna learn more and they wanna do better and they wanna understand. And so it's it's, like, you know, admirable that people are are trying, but it's also, like, it shouldn't be that, therefore, you're just expected to, like, come to the party. Service. Yeah. Exactly.
Freya Graf:
Exactly. So it's really cool that you mentioned that because I think that's something that people really don't don't get automatically until it's spelt out and, like, you know, they're given an example of, like, this is how it feels when, like, you know, I've got a friend who is and this is just a bit of a sidestep, but I've got a friend who's, Israeli. And, obviously, with all this stuff with Palestine, like, she's been having a whole fucking time of it. And because of the way she looks, she's constantly getting asked where she's from. You know, usually, it's because people, you know, she says it happens a lot with Arabic people, and there's a there's a lot of, like, people sort of going, hey. You look a bit like me. Like, where are you from? Because they wanna connect, But then she just feels so uncomfortable because she doesn't even wanna tell people where she's from because that could open up a whole fucking can of worms, and she just doesn't even feel safe, given the climate around that at the moment. But something that, like, I didn't realize was kind of offensive.
Freya Graf:
And it's not like I I never really did this anyway. I don't really ask people where they're from. Like, if I noticed that they look a bit different, I'm not like, oh, where are you from? But a lot of people do do that. And people ask me that a bit. I don't know. Usually people who think I'm like Italian or something. But she was just like, oh, I get it, like, every day at least once. Like, whether it's from people that are seeking to connect because they're thinking, oh, you you look like you might be where I'm from, and we can bond on that.
Freya Graf:
Or whether it's from people that are like, oh, you look so exotic with your, like, olive skin and your curly hair, and, like, where are you from? As, like, a fucking talking point. And I didn't realize that that's something that people hate and that it's actually kind of offensive. So I'd love if you could, like, explain that for listeners as well that, like, maybe that's not a super great thing to do.
Milo:
It just essentially others people like to assume that because they look different to you, that they're not from where you're from. Like I'm African Australian, but when people ask me where I'm from, I'm like, that could be a bunch of things. Like, where am I from? I mean, right now from my house, from my mom's uterus, from Western Australia, And it's never what they want to hear. They want to hear what makes you look different to me. And it's like, okay, you can say, where are your parents from? You can say, what's your heritage? You can say, oh, you look like you have a different ethnic background than me. Like, what what what is that about? Like, I think people it's it's it's it's othering. It makes you feel like you don't belong when people ask you where you're from. And yeah, I mean, even like talking about the example of your friend, like, you know, that's, that's a really difficult situation to be in if you're like, I believe all the things that are being said, but I mean, I think as well, that's a big part of just like xenophobia, making people an enemy, like
Freya Graf:
Yeah.
Milo:
Yeah. Yeah. That's essentially what it is. Xenophobia and making people feel other than like they're not a part of your team. There's a great publication called, where are you from? Where lots of people talk about that, which you and or listeners should listen to. It's a website and it's a lots of people's experiences of being asked where they're from in Australia. You know, some people like mommy, a shared pass gave us me, yeah, some great,
Freya Graf:
amazing, some good names there. Yeah. Yeah. Flexmammy is fucking incredible. And and and, like, really reminds me because, like, you're both very articulate and good at explaining. Like like, I really enjoy the way you both talk, and, like, can articulate, like, pretty fucking, like, charged and complex topics. Yeah. So that's cool.
Freya Graf:
I'll check that out. Cool. So I'm wondering, like, how how we can how we can, like, excavate our internal bias, you know, and, like, fat phobic conditioning and and and sort of, like, what to actually do when we when we notice it. Because, you know, the first step is obviously reflecting and trying to become aware of it. And then when you notice it, like, how we tackle that, and I guess an extension of this question would be, like, I'd love to hear a bit about your experience with, like, have you experienced you or other people that you know, who might be fat or black harboring, like, internalized fat phobia or racism, like, without even realizing it themselves. Because I have I
Milo:
think Yeah. I think everybody does. Like, I think everybody, it's a daily practice to not be internally homophobic, to not be internally fat phobic. And I think a lot of deconstructing that is like, like for me, I felt a lot of shame being fat, black and gay. And then I was like, okay, I'm gonna unfollow all of the white thin straight fitness influences that I'm following. And for every one of them that I unfollow, I'm going to follow someone that is fat, black and or queer and kind of, you know, I identify, especially, and I really wanted to put a focus on people that identified with those things that I also thought were hot to be like, they're those things. And I find her attractive or I find him attractive or I find them attractive. And they have this similarity with me.
Milo:
That thing is not a bad thing. It's just not what is celebrated in society, but they are hot. And I mean, I think internalized homophobia is like rampant, especially in Australia of like, you know, I'm a lesbian, but I'm not a lesbian like that. I'm not, I'm not like one of those, I'm not one of those gay boys. That's like this. Like, I'm like, I'm just, I'm into a mask gaze. I'm into, I want lesbians that don't look like they're lesbians. Like it's, it's weird culture.
Milo:
I think that could be, could be worldwide. I'm sure is worldwide in some capacity, but I feel like I really see a lot of it here. And like, I just think unpacking it is about naming it, identifying it, actively trying to not do it. It's it's a it really is a practice and difficult and long and, like, you know, I am that fat diva Bopo Bopo girl. But when Ozempic started being a thing, I'd be lying if I didn't say I thought about it. And I would be lying if I said, I still don't occasionally go, oh, wouldn't it be nice to just be skinny and just, like, not have to think about it? Yeah. But, you know, I exercise and I practice that idea of trying to deconstruct my internalized biases and, you know, I think my support network is awesome. My friends, we clock in each other when we're feeling some type of way about our bodies or when I'm feeling some type of way about my race or being queer.
Milo:
And I think that's important. Keep around people that, you know, we're gonna keep you in check and that you can keep them in check.
Freya Graf:
Yeah. Beautiful. Yeah. I think it's, like, just similarly to what I was saying before about, like, how, you know, you're kind of expected to do this emotional labor of unpacking things or, like, whatever. Like, you're also expected to make white people feel comfortable, versus because, like, I feel like so much of the time, at least in this kind of PC culture sort of, like, where we're a little bit more work, a little bit across stuff, People's biggest fear is, like, offending someone or saying the wrong thing and making them feel shit. And that's, like, that's beautiful. But it's also, like, preventing a lot of conversations that would be valuable and constructive from happening, Because
Milo:
people feel a lot of people's fear doesn't lie in offending someone. They fear comes from feeling like they've done something wrong because if your fear was offending someone, I think people would maneuver themselves differently than they do when it's just like, well, I'm not a bad person. I don't think I'm bad. It's not, oh my God, have I upset you? It's don't think badly about me. And I think you need to be more switched to, I don't want to offend. I don't want to make people feel ostracized. I don't want to make people feel uncomfortable. I want them to feel like I'm willing to be accountable and stand up for them and do the right thing.
Freya Graf:
Yeah. Yeah. You're right. Yeah. Often it's it's more about, like, how people will feel and see feel about you and see you and people wanna be liked and they don't wanna feel bad or judged or shamed for for fucking up. But then I think it just prevents people from actually taking the risk of trying and, like, being vulnerable and and, you know, being open to, like, being told, like, hey, that, like, you fucked up there, and that that made me feel a certain way. And, it's always this tricky balance of, like, trying to be a safe space and an ally, but also just not fully being able to understand because we haven't had the life experience, like, the exact things that will offend or hurt or whatever. And so, yeah, it's a it's a tricky thing, but I think it means, like, more conversations aren't happening where they could.
Freya Graf:
So, I don't know. I guess my approach is, like, just being, like, I am not perfect. I am not like, I am probably gonna fuck up, but I just want you to know, like, I'm absolutely well intentioned and I'm doing my best, and I'm so open to feedback if there's a way that I can improve. And I'm sorry you have to do that emotional labor and hold my hand through it. But, like, that is kind of the reality of, you know, and I think it's just yeah. It's so helpful to
Milo:
Even just, like, make sure you're well read. Like, I I think a big thing is like, I don't need my white friends to to tell me those things because I know those things as long as they are receptive when I tell them x, y, zed. And then I can see them doing that that that they're not just walking the walk, but they're talking the talk, but they're
Freya Graf:
Going and doing some research and, like, actually reading up to try to
Milo:
doing it. You know?
Freya Graf:
And it's just like I feel like so many
Milo:
people are just like, I'm I'm I'm here. And it's like, okay. Whoop it, girl? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And there's so many amazing resources now.
Freya Graf:
Like, there are so many books and podcasts and teachers around racial sensitivity awareness and, you know, body stuff. Like, there's there's that many bloody resources out there. And I think, yeah, such such good practical advice to just, like, really curate the kinds of people you follow in the media. Yeah. Which is which is something that I'll often suggest people as well. But just when they're trying to especially when they're trying to get away from feeling shitty about their body, I'm like, well, look at the people you follow. Like, let's just Yeah. Shake that off a bit.
Freya Graf:
Because it's all input into our brains just either confirming or offering an alternative perspective to, like, the ones that we've been steeped in from birth that we've been talking about. So yeah. Alright. Well, I'm just conscious of time, so I don't wanna, go too much over. I would love to ask you if you have a TMI story for us before we wrap up for the TMI we love it segment. Hey, Megan. If you'd like to support the potty and you've already given it 5 stars on whatever platform you're listening on, I wanna mention that you can buy some really dope merch from the website and get yourself a labia lounge tote, tee, togs. Yep.
Freya Graf:
You heard that right. I even have labia lounge bathers, or a cute fanny pack if that'd blow your hair back. So, if fashion isn't your passion though, you can donate to my buy me a coffee donation page, which is actually called buy me a soy chai latte because I'll be the first to admit, I'm a bit of a Melbourne cafe tosser like that. And yes, that is my coffee order. You can do a one soft donation or an ongoing membership and sponsor me for as little as 3 fat ones a month. And I also offer 1 on 1 coaching and online courses that'll help you level up your sex life and relationship with yourself and others in a really big way. So every bit helps because it ain't cheap to put out a sweet podcast, into the world every week out of my own pocket. So I will be I'm dyingly grateful if you support me and my biz financially in any of these ways.
Freya Graf:
And if you like, I'll even give you a mental BJ with my mind from the lounge itself. Salty. And, I'll pop the links in the show notes. Thank you. Later.
Milo:
I feel like maybe it's not TMI, but I feel like there is idealized vulvas in the world. Right? Yeah. And I feel like I, because I'm a part of so many, like, you know, marginalized groups because I have the, the barbie puss, I used to be like, so vocally proud of it. I was like, yeah, I may not be a part of most social ideals, but I do have porn pussy and you can all fucking suck on it. But I feel like
Freya Graf:
with a dental dam
Milo:
With a dental dent, I used to be so like I have the perfect vagina and I feel like I guess that's my DMI is like I used to just like especially with men, I used to make I'd be like, oh, don't touch it until you've appreciated it. I need you to see it for all its glory. But then I was like, years later, I was talking about that. And someone was like, I feel like you need to unpack that. Like, that's like they're
Freya Graf:
like, all the things that you say that thin straight white people shouldn't do. You kinda do that with people that don't have
Milo:
a vote that looks like yours. And I was like, oh, why did you have to make this political? I was just enjoying my one social idea, and now I'm like, oh.
Freya Graf:
Just let me have this one.
Milo:
Literally, I was like, oh, I can't have my pussy privilege. That's fucked. I'm like, oh, no. Destigmatizing things in the world means that when I have a social ideal, I need to be understanding of others. That's so boring. Can I just, like, be a bitch?
Freya Graf:
Oh my god. But I mean, is this is this maybe this is a silly question, but is it is it I definitely come across people who have the attitude of, like, well, but I'm already, like, I'm copying it on these fronts, and I'm doing the work in this way, and I don't have the privilege in these ways. So, like, the one area that I do, I'm just gonna fucking surely, it balances out. Right? Like, can you take a little bit of leeway given that you are fat black.
Milo:
Surely, comically, I can just be, like, fuck all of you bitches with your not porn physique. But I feel like I shouldn't do that. That's my TMI. It's making a cow about my vagina compared to other people's and my labia and my vulva compared to other people's.
Freya Graf:
Oh my god. I love it. I love it. That's perfect perfect way to end. And it's kinda just showing that you are practicing what you preach because you took that feedback on from your friend and you, you are reforming and, but I still think you can a 100% just enjoy enjoy your pussy and, you know, and the fact
Milo:
that it's it's like one
Freya Graf:
it's one less source of, like, feeling different or less can you know, like, it's it's just one slightly less exhausting thing that, oh, well, at least that conforms to beauty standards, and I don't have to fucking waste any energy thinking about that. And I think, like, totally
Milo:
Well, yeah. I I try not to, like, need to, like, brag about it. I'd be, like, do you wanna see it perfect? And people would be like, okay. But now now I now I do that less.
Freya Graf:
Well, I feel like now you do that with your whole body, like, not in a braggy way, but in a, like, look at me. I am perfect, and I am not perfect because I fit into these beauty ideals, like, I used to feel about my pussy. But it's because I'm fucking beautiful and deserving of feeling beautiful regardless. So I think that's a healthier Yeah. Kind of approach.
Milo:
Yay. Thank you so much for having me. What a joyous hour.
Freya Graf:
Pleasure. Treasure. I'm so pumped and yeah. Yeah. Very grateful, for letting me fumble my way through that. And I'll put all the links to your work in the show notes. I feel like I have, like, learned things and, like, reflected a bit more deeply on things just in this chat alone. So, yeah, I hope that everyone else is yeah.
Freya Graf:
Yeah. Got some food for thought as well. So thanks so much, my dear. Thank you so much for having me. I'm gonna go have
Milo:
a shower and go to my physio. I imagine
Freya Graf:
Yeah. Get it, girl. Take that perfect pussy off to the physio.
Milo:
I will. I will. It's a it's a task that that only I could possibly be be burdened with, but I, carry on with my proud flaps.
Freya Graf:
And that's it, darling hearts. Thanks for stopping by the lady lounge. Your bum groove in the couch will be right where you left it just waiting for you to sink back in for some more double l action next time. If you'd be a dear and subscribe, share this episode or leave a review on iTunes, then you can pat yourself on the snatch because that's a downright act of sex positive feminist activism. And you'd be supporting my vision to educate, empower, demystify and destigmatize with this here podcast. I'm also always open to feedback, topic ideas that you'd love to hear covered, questions or guest suggestions, so feel free to get in touch via my website or over on Insta. You can also send me and TMI stories to be shared anonymously on the pod. My handle is freyagraf_thelabialounge, if my account hasn't been deleted for being too sex positive, which, you know, is always a possibility with censorship.
Freya Graf:
But just in case the chronic censorship finally does obliterate my social channels, I'd highly recommend going and joining my mailing list and snagging yourself some fun freebies for the trouble at www.freaghraff.com/freebies. Anyway, later labial legends. See you next time.