Understanding Consent Beyond “No Means No” with Danielle Bezalel

Freya Graf:

This program is brought to you by Pussy Magnets.

Freya Graf:

Welcome.

Freya Graf:

Welcome, my lovely lumps. Or should I say lovely labs? I'm so thrilled to have you here in the Labia Lounge. We're gonna yawn about all things sexuality, womanhood, relationships, intimacy, holistic health, and everything in between. Your legs. Oh, can't help myself. Anyway, we're gonna have Vagelords of real chats with real people about real shit. So buckle up. You're about to receive the sex ed that you never had and have a bloody good laugh while you're at it.

Freya Graf:

Before we dive in, I'd like to respectfully acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land on which I'm recording this, the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin nation. It's an absolute privilege to be living and creating dope podcast content in Naarm, and I pay respect to their elders past, present and emerging. Now, if you're all ready, let's flap and do this. Oh, my god. Is there such thing as too many vagina jokes in the one intro? Whatever. It's my podcast. I'm leaving it in. Hey, gang.

Freya Graf:

Just before we jump into this episode, I wanted to offer you an opportunity to access my new mini course for free before I start charging for it in future. It's for people with vulvas and it's quick to complete. It's all about demystifying the female body and pleasure anatomy and getting some basic fundamentals to understand your body better. It's called Pussy Pleasure Secrets, Your Roadmap to Bedroom Bliss. You can grab it on the freebies page of my website or in the show notes. It's a great little free resource to kind of dip your toe in or act as a bit of a taster for my work. So if you've ever been curious about this sort of thing and you just don't know where to start or you want a really quick, easy, accessible, non threatening way to get the ball rolling and start working on this stuff, this is a great place to start. Hey, my labial lovers.

Freya Graf:

Welcome back. Today, we're tackling a really massive and nuanced topic that is oh, so important and really should be at the core of every child's education from the get go, in my opinion, and that is consent culture and education. People generally don't realize how much there is to this and how deeply it affects everyone, especially those socialized as women, on a daily basis throughout the entire lifespan, and it's something that I've really started nerding out on big time, over the last couple of years. So I'm excited to be chatting about it. We're gonna discuss how rape culture, despite what some may argue, is still very alive and well, how it's constantly impacting us in more ways than we realize, whether you think you've been sexually assaulted or not. We'll talk about what we can do about this and how we can start to look at consent and teach ourselves and our children to start breaking the cycle of normalized consent violations and sexual violence, And we're generally just gonna kinda meander around on on these topics because they're quite complex, and I think just, yeah, some of the things that we'll be chatting about will be things that might sort of seem really obvious as soon as you hear them and be like, oh my god. Yeah. But that maybe you haven't, like, not it out in your own head before, because it's kind of all hiding in plain sight.

Freya Graf:

So today, I've got Danielle Bezalel with me, aka DB, who's the creator, executive producer, and host of the sex ed with DB podcast. It's a feminine a feminist podcast bringing you all the sex ed you never got, centering LGBTQIA plus and BIPOC experts. Danielle and a master of public health with expertise in sexuality, sexual and reproductive health from Columbia University, and currently lives in Oakland, California. Welcome, DV. Thanks for coming on. Let's, let's pull up a quick question.

DB:

Thank you so much for having me, Freya. I really appreciate it. Yeah. Consent. I am more than thrilled to spend a long while talking about this today. So thanks again.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. No. Thank you. I've been wanting to do an episode on this for absolutely ages. So, yeah, I I was like, oh, god. There's so much. Where do we begin? And I suppose I probably should have also given a bit of a trigger warning, too late now, about talking about rape culture. And I suppose just off the top to kind of set the scene, I wanted to, yeah, I guess I guess just, like, acknowledge that, like, for for most people, like, in their minds, you hear the word you hear rape culture, and, you know, you just go to the very, like, overt, very obviously kind of malicious or premeditated or deliberate act of p and v, sexual assault, that we've been taught is the definition of rape.

Freya Graf:

Like, it's we think of rape as quite quite a limited, thing or or specific act. And obviously, like, you know, the violation a violation like this from a perpetrator who intends to cause harm in this way is one thing, and that is way more black and white, to most people. Like, it's like, okay. Well, we know that's bad, and that's fucked, and that's rape. But that's only a small proportion of sexual violence and rape that actually happens overall. And so when we're talking about, rape culture, I wanted to kind of, I guess, bring attention to the fact that this also includes the normalization of some far more common and insidious forms of sexual assault that really fly under the radar, because we've all sort of we've unconsciously signed up to go along with it or ignore it or even expect it from boys and men in particular. And it's all of this sort of less obvious stuff, like, you know, that often the perpetrators and the victims don't even, you know, realize isn't okay because it's become so normalized. So this is stuff that's happening all the time.

Freya Graf:

Everywhere you look, it's stuff like normalizing microaggressions, misogynistic comments, or jokes or catcalling. These little things that go unnoticed mostly or just sort of, swept under the rug or, like, shrugged off really create fertile ground for sexual violence and coercion to occur without it even being recognized as such by our society. So I was wondering if, like, you had some examples of this sort of thing that you teach that most people wouldn't even consider as nonconsensual, but that does stem from this rape culture. You know, things involving coercion or pressure or, you know, sex under the influence or what are some things that you kinda draw people's attention to that are a product of rape culture and that are actually nonconsensual that are happening and are quite normalized?

Freya Graf:

Yeah. Absolutely. So the first thing that comes to mind for me because I studied film and media at UC Berkeley for my undergrad degree, and I've always been really, really passionate about the way in which that culture and media shape kind of how we act as individuals, as people in relationships, in friendships, in sexual situations. And so, yeah, it's just so apparent that the amount of films and TV shows that have these messages in them, right, of like, oh, this woman specifically wants to be, like, pushed up against the wall without asking or, like, you know, kissed without, you know, any sort of conversation about, like, any sexual encounter beforehand. And, actually, I'm, watching for the first time the show 6 feet under, which is a show that's from the early 2000 on HBO. It is about a family that is pretty dysfunctional, but, really, you know, has an interesting story behind them. They run a funeral home together. And there was literally a scene where one of the women in the show, Claire, who's the daughter, kind of the main daughter in the show of this family, she's, like, hooking up with this guy.

Freya Graf:

And he actually is asking her, what do you like? And I was like, oh my gosh. We're seeing actually in 2003, a very good example of a cis straight man asking this woman what she wants. And she actually is in the one the one in the show saying, I don't wanna talk about it. It makes it much, much less sexy. And he asks her, he goes, well, how am I supposed to know what to do if I don't ask? Like, I was blown away by how different this depiction was. But nevertheless, it becomes, you know, fraught because of this woman character, which is a rare kind of, you know, depiction because typically it is the other way around. But then he asked her, do you like your nipples played with? And she says, not if you talk about it. And then she kind of like storms off and she and she and she's like, maybe it's best if I go home.

Freya Graf:

And he's like, okay, then go home. Like, I don't know what to tell you. So it's just like, it was a wild scene that I was like, I clocked it and was just like, this is just one small example of shows that are very popular. At the time, millions of people were tuning into that show. Right? And millions of people have tuned in since. And this is just an example of this idea that it is, quote, unquote, unsexy or inappropriate or weird to talk about what we want in the bedroom, what we want from a sexual partner. And, you know, these messages are unfortunately not few and far between. They're the norm.

Freya Graf:

And so I think, like, media is like a whole topic where we could really talk for hours about the messages that we get around consent, and and rape culture.

Freya Graf:

Oh, my god. Big time. It's it's one of the main sources, of influence really. Like, especially growing up as teenagers, you don't have a lot to go off. It's definitely not being provided by a sex education in schools or whatever and generally not from your parents. So we we model what we see and what we're seeing a lot of, you know, mostly the relationships or the sexual dynamics we see on the screen because we're not really in the bedroom with many other real people. And, yeah, it just absolutely breaks my heart because that sounds like it's almost like they kinda tried to show you how it could be done and and the really sort of open communication piece and stuff. But then, yeah, they completely sabotage that and ruined it by the woman being like because I hate that that that is such a common trope now.

Freya Graf:

It's like, oh, it's not it ruins the mood. It's not smooth. It's not sexy. You know, don't talk in sex. Like, it it kind of, like, harshes the vibe. There's nothing romantic about, like, you know and and that's just so not true, but it is a common trope in in the media, and it's so sad that

Freya Graf:

this guy was actually doing a great

Freya Graf:

job and, like, you know, no notes, pal. Good job. Right.

Freya Graf:

And then,

Freya Graf:

you know, the woman couldn't even feel that. And it's just like a bit of a tool a tool of, like, you know, whoever wrote that script and produced that. That's that's reinforcing the exact same message as if, you know, all the other scenes that are a little bit more common where the guy isn't asking any of that stuff and is just taking what he wants and going in for the kill and and not taking no for an answer and being persistent and being kinda, like, a little bit, like, man handily, and that's, like, meant to be sexy and hard, and it's, like, oh my god. I just want them to take me. Like, that's really reinforced a lot in scenes, you know, generally where the man's doing that. And then for once, the man wasn't doing that, but they still reinforce the exact same message by having the female character not not receive that in a Right. Sure way. So that's pretty Which

Freya Graf:

is kind of like, yeah. Like, the ultimate takeaway there is that, like, it's weird to talk about it, and we shouldn't do it, and we shouldn't be embarrassed about it, which is a shame. And the other thing that I kinda wanted to mention, this season in at sex ed with DB, we did an episode about teens choking each other during sex. And there was a New York Times article about this that came out recently that was kind of like, we need to talk about this troubling trend where, specifically, boys and young men are kind of, again, taking cues from shows like Euphoria and kind of other examples in the media where they're just deciding to put a lot more pressure than they intend to or they should on their partner's neck, and it legitimately is dangerous. Like, there is a study that was done around, like, brain damage that is equivalent to, like, when people get concussions during sports. And, like, the whole messaging here shouldn't be like, oh, like, BDSM shouldn't happen. In fact, BDSM practitioners are averse to choking because of this and kind of recommend other examples of like breath play or other things that can kind of get you to the power dynamic that you're looking for without being dangerous. And so and they they kind of touch on this in the article, but I do wish that they talked a little bit more about it.

Freya Graf:

But that's just another example where they also discuss the fact that the orgasm gap isn't decreasing. It's still the same and yet, like choking habits are increasing. So it's not like women are getting more pleasure out of this. It's more of an example of sexism and misogyny, kind of wrapped up in this idea that men get to decide the activity with a woman in this kind of context of a cis straight relationship. Mhmm.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. And and there's sort of this, like, underlying pressure or expectation on men to take the lead and, like, know what they're doing and just go for it and be, like, confident lovers. And and that sort of, like, we're told that that looks like them not needing to ask for guidance or directional feedback or consent, but just knowing what they should be doing and going for it because they're confident lovers and they're, like, you know. And that's just so misguided because, you know, to me, like, a confident lover would be someone confident to actually communicate about sex and check-in and be attuned to their partner and and continuously seeking, you know, affirmation or consent around different acts that they're doing and and taking different steps or escalating things in different ways. Like, if you can't if you can't talk about that stuff, then you really shouldn't be having sex, in my opinion. And I know it makes a lot of people feel uncomfortable because we haven't been taught how to do it. We don't have the scaffolding. We don't have the modeling on how this can be, like, still, like, a sexy kind of beautiful experience to have those conversations and have that kind of communication as an ongoing thing, like, woven throughout our intimacy.

Freya Graf:

But it's just you know, I mean, it's it's part of my mission to to try to, like, teach people to do this and and teach women, because I work predominantly with women at the moment, like, how to actually, play ball. Like, if someone's actually there willing to, like, have those chats and, like, checking in and asking for consent, don't ridicule them. Don't be like, oh my god. That's so not hot. Like, I don't wanna talk about it. You just not you just just do the things to me. I don't care. Like, go for it.

Freya Graf:

I'm you know, like, come to the party. Everyone needs to come to the party and be up for having these chats even if they're fucking uncomfortable and confronting and a little bit awkward or a little bit, like, you know, they make you feel shy or whatever. Mhmm. Or even if you don't know what your answers are to, like, oh, what do you like? You know, give it a give it a crack. Give these conversations a crack because they need to be happening, and it's really devastating that they're not. And, yeah, I was thinking about how, the kind of the expectations I guess one thing, like, enabling rape culture to continue to thrive is the expectations that males hold because of a conditioned sense of entitlement in the world in general, as well as entitlement over women's bodies because that's what's being modeled. That's kind of what's rewarded. You know, if we kinda look at the circumstances that lead to men thinking that it's okay to just kind of take without permission or or do things without permission, we see that, like, the cultural and societal systems and narratives are really reflected in our sexual scripts that are just kind of followed by default, especially in the hetero, like, mostly in the hetero world.

Freya Graf:

So, like, an example of these narratives can be things like how boys are socialized and taught not to take no for an answer, to be assertive, to go after what you want. You know, persistence equals success. They're also socialized to believe that their needs and desires are more important than a woman's. Like, it might not seem as explicit as that. Like, no one has maybe said to every boy, like, your needs are more important, but those are the messages. That is the narrative that's running. And so these same narratives that help men become successful in a patriarchal capitalistic society and become CEOs and, you know, those also bleed into how we approach sexuality and provide them with this sense of entitlement, that just means there's so much kind of coercion going on and, like, and pressure that they might not even realize they're putting on and the women in that situation might not even realize is not okay because it's so normal.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we're fighting against, like, 1000 of years of you know what

Freya Graf:

I mean?

Freya Graf:

Like, it's just Yeah. Like, I don't know. I just feel like we have this expectation that things should be so different now, like, because women and queer people have, like, fought for their rights. But, like, as we can see, at least politically in the US, I can't really speak to Australia, but in the US, like, we're fighting tooth and nail to not consistently be going backwards with so many of these rights and expectations that we have around the way in which that minorities and, you know, queer people, women are treated

Freya Graf:

and,

DB:

BIPOC folks. And so I think, like, of course, there's gonna be this kind of deeply embedded horrificness of misogyny and misogynistic behavior from men because they've been rewarded, for it. And that has been their, you know, expectation for years years years. And so, I think that it's a challenge, but one that's worth fighting for, which is to kind of, you know, continually fight against that status quo, to continually be you know, if you hear a microaggression and say, hey. I don't think that's funny. Like, it may seem like not your job to continually be engaging in this fight. And in some ways, it's not. And you have to kind of pick and choose when you wanna use your energy to ensure that, you know, in your own interactions that you're protecting yourself.

Freya Graf:

But if you do feel like you're in a safe environment to have a constructive conversation with someone about the way in which they view the world, if it's problematic, You know, we we try to make these, like, little changes, so that eventually we all are in better relationships, better friendships, better conversations that we have with our family, with people who might disagree with us. But it's it's a slow moving process.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Big time. Hey, baby babes. Sorry to interrupt. I just had to pop my head into the lounge here and mention another virtual lounge that I'd love you to get around.

Freya Graf:

It's the Labia Lounge Facebook group that I've created for listeners of the potty to mingle in. There you'll find extra bits and bobs like freebies, behind the scenes, or discounts for offerings from guests who have been interviewed on the podcast. They'll also be, hopefully, inspiring, thought provoking conversations, and support from a community of labial legends like yourself. My vision for this is that it becomes a really supportive, educational, and hilarious resource for you to have more access to me and a safe space to ask questions you can't ask anywhere else. So head over to links in the show notes or look up the Labia Lounge group in Facebook, and I'll see you in there. And now back to the episode. Yep. Totally agree.

Freya Graf:

There's an amazing book called Consent Laid Bare by Chanel Contos, Contos, I think. And yeah. Like, it it's a it's I I recommend it to everyone. It's an incredible book, and it just sort of talks about, how the most kind of common type of rapist I think she calls them, like, entitled opportunists. And and, you know, these these sorts of people, you know, they the the traits in men that are socialized in that help them rise to power also mean that they often, you know, sort of tend to be committing acts of, like, nonconsensual sex or sexual violence without realizing because of a sense of entitlement and a lower level of empathy. And I think there's a quote wonder if I've written it down. There's a quote, something about how we need to make it so that empathy towards women becomes a trait that boys and men possess in a greater degree than the sense of entitlement they have over women's bodies. Because it's just it's just this.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. And and it's so important, like, if we've got children, and boys in particular, to be really onto it from the get go. Because there's, like, stuff that, you know, that you wouldn't even bat an eyelid. In the nineties when I was growing up, You know, you were expected to go to a family thing and, like, go and, like, kiss your uncle on the cheek or have, like, hugs from all your relatives. I used to feel so awkward and hate it so much. I'd, like, try to position my myself on the side of the dining table when someone new is entering the room so that I could try to get away with a bit of a wave instead of, like, a awkward Strategic. We're gonna have, like, a kiss on the cheek hug thing and, like, I hated it so much. And we're doing that from, like, you know, little children, like, have nobody autonomy.

Freya Graf:

We're just kinda going in and giving them hugs and kisses without asking, and it seems very harmless and it's very normalized. But something that I've learned when doing, you know, my my research around consent is even those are little opportunities to start undoing this, like, socialized pattern of, allowing that a lot of, people who have been socialized to be to be women, yeah, like, kind of caught from the moment they come out of the womb. Like, our bodies, you know, aren't totally ours. We don't always have control over what happens to them. Sometimes it's easier to just allow something to happen than to make a scene or create a fuss or, you know, to sort of, assert any boundaries. Like, we're kind of socialized not to have boundaries. Mhmm. And so, yeah, it's it's cool to think about the ways that you can even help, like, a young child start to understand sovereignty and body autonomy and, respect their boundaries, you know, before they even know the concept of boundaries because that would just, like, provide a nice foundation for them, moving forward as they as they grow up.

Freya Graf:

Because I just I think so many like, when I was a teenager, like, it it begins so young. You kind of find yourself in these situations where no one's, like, actively forcing themselves on you, but you might go along with something that you don't really feel comfortable with or you don't you're not loving or you might just, you know, continue having sex even once it starts hurting because you kind of don't wanna make a scene or interrupt the moment or because you're putting the other person's needs before your own. Because, you know, we've been taught that our needs are less of a priority and our pleasure is less of a priority. So there's so many, like, very insidious ways that consent violations are happening, and often the the people who are the victims themselves don't even see it as as a consent violation. And then we we tend to beat ourselves up for, like, letting something because we should have stopped it or we should have, you know. So it's very vicious in this way that it turns us against ourselves even.

Freya Graf:

Mhmm. Yeah. And the me too movement has just shown us that it's every woman and, like, woman presenting person that we know. Right? Like, I don't know one person who hasn't experienced some form of sexual assault or sexual harassment. I think, like, cat calling, you know, I remember, like, being a middle schooler, like, walking down the street with my friends and, like, people honking and yelling at us. Like, it was just it was so pervasive and gave such a bad feeling, but no one was, like, talking to me about that then. No one was really saying anything about, like, that's wrong and you, you know, you're more powerful or what whatever whatever. There's no sort of messaging around that.

Freya Graf:

I think it's just so pervasive that it's, you know, in so many different, you know, forms that it's really hard to to even know what to what to do when other people are kind of enforcing that on you.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. Yeah. Big time. And that's it. It's like that's it it's it's a culture. It's an entire culture that we're trying to recover from and unpick and unpack and and sort of re reconfigure, and it's all very well to, like, teach, you know because I feel like the extent of consent education when I was in school was, like, teaching boys about the legal definition of consent and, like, if, you know, if someone's, like, younger than this age and you're older like, it was all just about the legal ramifications that could happen if you fucked up. None of it was really about the ethical or moral considerations. It was kinda just like teaching boys not to rape.

Freya Graf:

But it would be far preferable if we weren't just teaching boys not to rape or or to try to avoid being convicted for rape by telling them what the legal ramifications are for this, that, and whatever. But actually creating a culture where, like, healthy communication and intimacy and boundaries and equality and empathy for others is just the baseline. And so within that kind of culture, if that's the default and that's the baseline, like, violating consent would be totally unthinkable from that place. But the problem is, like, it is it's it's so easy for it to happen and to get away with it and for every like, we've all just signed up to, like, go along with with all of this because it's so pervasive, like you said. It's everywhere. It's been around for ages, and it's not just the overt act of dick in badger rape. It's the culture that creates such a fertile ground for violations of consent to happen and no one to do anything about it. And then, you know, of course, the victim blaming aspect where it puts the onus on the woman to not make herself too appealing to a rapist.

Freya Graf:

You know, we're brought up to feel as though it's on us to manage and protect ourselves from men's, like, animalistic, uncontrollable urges and desires by changing what we wear or the route that we walk home by or self limiting in ways and being hypervigilant in all sorts of ways. And it's just like, fuck me. Like, how do we instill empathy for women into boys? Like like, that is the main thing that needs to happen from the get go is, like, instilling empathy into boys and, like, knocking back some of that entitlement. We live in a fucking patriarchy, and then people like Andrew Tate and, like, all this incel culture and pickup artist stuff is thriving online. And I think I saw a thing where, like, they did a study and, like, boys and men are getting more conservative in their beliefs around this stuff. Like, it's it's quite hard not to feel a bit hopeless about it.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. I mean, I I totally feel you. I think, like, a couple of thoughts. I think, like, for sure, like, everybody should have empathy and respect towards one another and for each other's bodies and minds and hearts. That's kind of the baseline. Another thing that I'm thinking of is like, how do we make this cool? Right? Like, how do we get media and like, things that young people are watching? TikTok, you know, like Snapchat, YouTube, like, how do we get top creators, you know, to be on board with this kind of messaging, through scripts, through films, through TV shows, around the ways in which young boys in particular should be thinking about how to treat other people's bodies. And so, like, you know, the baseline is there, and yet at the same time, me being, like, a creative person who really likes media and who really likes to kind of think outside the box. Like, I do think this idea of, like, how do we make this messaging cool is, like, a valid question.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. And, like, how do we talk about these issues in a way that feels like it's getting through to young people? Like, this is kind of a separate thing, but just in terms of queer representation. Right? Like, the show Heartstopper on Netflix has created so many conversations about, like, what positive representation looks like for queer people across the the spectrum. And, like, it doesn't do it in a way that makes it, you know, ugly or weird or strange or it becomes a mockery of itself. Like, these actors are cool. Like, people are looking up to them and following them on social media and interested in their stories. And, like, how do we do the same thing when talking about, like, sex and intimacy and the way that we respond to other people's bodies. So that's that's my one thought.

Freya Graf:

And my other thought that I have is, like, you know, find your people. Like, you are, you know, you listener talking to you, you are beautiful and worthy and deserving of great sex with yourself and with a partner or partners. And if if you are waiting to engage in sexual activity with someone that you're dating to see if they're also worthy of, like, sharing your body, that is perfectly okay. Like, you do not need to feel like you have to engage in penetrative sex specifically or, you know, hook up with someone because of any sort of outside pressure. Like, know that you deserve the exact kind of experience that you want, And you should be able to trust the other person enough to feel like they are worthy of that experience. So I do think like, we have to put some onus on what while we're fighting, you know, we have to put some onus on ourselves to make sure that we protect ourselves and that we only engage with people who are worthy of engaging with.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. Yeah. Big time. And I love what you said about media because it it really is changing. There are some shows that I've been so impressed with and so blown away by and just like, oh my god. This is so dope. I'm really, really excited that this is starting to happen. Like, Sex Education or Big Mouth.

Freya Graf:

Big Mouth is such a good one. And it's fucking cool. You know, it's created by, like, really famous, really, really talented, well known comedians. And so I see something like that, and I'm like, oh my god. This is gonna be the thing. Like, this is far more powerful than most things to, like, change the culture because media is so big and it's sort of far reaching, and it has the power, like, to make things cool, like you said. Because, sure, you know, we can have programs in schools, but unless you I mean, kids are kids are switched on, and and sometimes I worry because I remember, like, my school journey, and there might be, like, a, I don't know, a company of facilitators that would come in every now and then to try to, like, do, like, a drug and alcohol education piece or, you know, maybe something to do with, like, sex education. And you kind of just as a teenager, you're looking at these, like, older folk just being like, you guys are lame.

Freya Graf:

This is all lame. This is boring. It's not cool to pay attention in class, let alone to actually, like, buy into all of this, like, shit that grown ups are trying to tell us to do. So you've gotta be pretty freaking savvy and clever and, like, tapped into that younger mindset and the culture, to kind of actually get through to them and to actually make it cool. And so I think, like, you're so right. Like, TV and movies and things like that, so powerful. I'm probably the best access point, and I just, like, wonder because I watch shows that I'm, like, wow, like, this is incredible. It's doing such a good job of addressing all sorts of things in the realm of consent culture and, and sort of, like, you know, queer stuff and, like, it's it's really impressive.

Freya Graf:

But I'm like, am I just into this because I am my age and I'm a sex educator? He's also watching this. Like, a teenager is also watching this and thinking it's cool, or are they just, like, you know, like because I I guess I'm not the audience that, that sort of needs it the most at the moment. I'm just looking at it like, wow, this is so great. Oh my god. I love this. But, I'm hoping that it's getting through the teenagers too. But it is heartening. It's heartening seeing, like, so many scripts and shows, like, really making an effort and doing a better job of this.

Freya Graf:

And, you know, more diversity, more representation. Like, it's it's awesome. Yeah. So that's good. That that does give me hope, actually. Thanks. I was going down a bit of a, like, espresso, depressive vortex for a second there. Yeah.

Freya Graf:

But, let's do the segment get pregnant and die while we're talking about education in schools. Do you have a, a sex ed story for us?

Freya Graf:

Don't have sex because you will get pregnant and don't have sex in a missionary position. Don't have don't have sex standing up. Just don't do it. Promise?

Freya Graf:

Yeah. One of my favorite sex ed stories is about my 7th grade health class. I grew up on Long Island in New York in the US and, you know, it's like a pretty, like, middle class, like, you know, normal, quote, unquote, public school. And we did have health class, which is more than most, but, really, the topics that I remember going over are, like, drugs and alcohol and STIs. Maybe we went over, like, nutrition and, like, a couple other things, but I feel like that was the main thing. Like, maybe we went over reproduction, like, certainly didn't go over, like, the anatomy of a vagina or vulva. But we had this project where we each got assigned a different STI. And a friend of mine, Danny, at the time, she got assigned crabs.

Freya Graf:

And she was, like, super creative and very fun. And I just remember her poster board the next, like, week when we had to present on them. She had this, like, huge trifold poster board, and she had, like, black yarn, like, all over the poster board to represent pubes. And then she had she had cut out these, like, little, like, paper spiders and had, like, put them all over the poster board. And I just remember I mean, like, I've told the story, like, 10 times, and I just it's just so funny, like, what sticks out in your memory almost 20 years later.

Freya Graf:

Yeah.

Freya Graf:

And I think, like, because we were definitely shown so many, like, gross close-up pictures of STIs, like, gross out intentionally kind of moments. And so I'm sure that this poster board really sticks out in my head because it was, like, playful and funny and, like, kind of a respite from, like, all of the archaicness that, you know, it felt like this sex ed class was. And I think that, you know, more classes, like, need to have some levity. Like, there there really shouldn't be 12 year olds that are learning only through pictures about STIs. Like, we need to really be truthful with young people. And when it comes to STIs, say, like, hey. Like, the most common symptom is no symptom at all. A lot of people get STIs.

Freya Graf:

Most of them, you know, are either, curable or if they're not curable, they are manageable with you know, you getting an STI does not mean you're not worthy of love. Like, you are perfectly great. Like, there's so many things that it would have been really easy for this teacher who I think, you know, did his best at the time in the early 2000. But it it's a bummer that, like, those are the main things that we learned about, but very fun that I'm able to remember this fun, silly poster board.

DB:

Totally. Totally. Yeah. I love that. Go her.

Freya Graf:

Her. Yeah.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. Thank you for that. Well, let's chat about why no means no isn't enough because I think the no means no message was really drilled in and everyone's heard that. But, actually, like, when you really look into it, like, no means no isn't enough. We need to make sure we're getting a fuck yes, not just a lack of a no. So I'd love to hear your thoughts around that and maybe, you know, chat a bit about, like, like, like, the phrase or the foreign response, and and why that kind of really means that, like, just a lack of no is not enough when it comes to consent.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. I think that, you know, this is messaging that we've been receiving for for years now. I think, like, from the from the beginning of this messaging, it really was, like, listen to my no. Right? Like, make sure that you're hearing me or else you are raping me. You know? Like, I think it was a very kind of negative messaging, which is important. Like, people need to know that their boundaries are critical, and they need to know that they have the ability and the right to say no whenever they want. But I think that taking the message a little bit further and to your point about, like, you need to fuck yes, and here is all of the things that are examples of what is not a fuck yes. Right? Like, silent is not silence is not a fuck yes.

Freya Graf:

Not sure is not a fuck yes. Being drunk and you know, or under the influence is not a fuck yes. You know, you kind of being coerced into something is not a fuck yes. You kind of saying yes and then saying no is not a fuck yes. So, you know, kind of really talking through what we're getting at here is the nuances of these interactions and that it's really important for both parties to feel fully in control of everything that's happening in that situation. They have the ability to change their mind. And, like, let's talk about pleasure. Right? Like, people typically engage in sexual interactions with other people and with themselves because they wanna feel pleasure, and they wanna feel good.

Freya Graf:

And while orgasm doesn't have to be your be all end all, you know, and your goal, like, a lot of people really enjoy orgasming. It feels really good. It makes sense. And so if someone is engaging in a sexual activity that is painful and, you know, that's not something that they're wanting. If it's something that makes them uncomfortable, if they're just not in the mood, like, those are not fuck yes. Those are things that need to pause, like, have a conversation. Maybe that's it for the night or maybe you revisit it at another time. But, like, the key here is that people deserve fun and pleasure and feeling good in their body in sexual interactions.

Freya Graf:

And, you know, I think that the last thing I'll say on this is it's really important to also discuss the nuance of how uncomfortable many of us feel in our bodies. Right? And so like, it's critical for each each of us to get comfortable in our own skin and understand what feels good for us, what our boundaries are, where we like to be touched, where we don't like to be touched, what are our, you know, red red tape or red flag scenarios where we're really not interested in in participating in certain acts? And how can we convey that with our partner? And I kind of mentioned this before, but, like, if you're on a first date or if you are having sex with someone or hooking up with them for the first time, chances are they have no idea what to do or what to do in for your body that makes you feel good. So all the more reason to have open conversations even if it's awkward. Right? And if something is feeling good, convey that to your partner. Hey, that feels really good. Keep going. Or hey, can you try this? Or, oh, that actually hurts. Let's take a pause.

Freya Graf:

Right? Oh, I wanna try lube. You know, there are a lot of things that you can communicate to your partner to make sure that that fuck yes is being shared, so that both of you or all of you can have a really good time and have a lot of fun.

Freya Graf:

Excuse this quick interruption. I'm shamelessly seeking reviews and 5 star ratings for the potty because as I'm sure you've noticed by now, it's pretty fab. And the more people who get to hear it, the more people I can help with it. Reviews and ratings actually do make a big difference to this little independent podcaster, and it's really easy to just quickly show your support by taking that simple act of either leaving 5 stars for the show on Spotify or, even better, writing a written review and leaving 5 stars over on Apple Podcasts. Or if you're a real overachiever, you can do them both. That would be mad. If you're writing a review though, just be sure to use g rated words because despite the fact that this is a podcast about sexuality, words like sex can be censored and your review won't make it through the gates. Lame.

Freya Graf:

Anyway, I would personally recommend doing that right now while you remember just to get on top of it and let me know you're with me on this journey. Thanks, gang. Enjoy the rest of the epi. Yeah. Definitely. Definitely. Definitely. Big time.

Freya Graf:

That should be that should be, like, the bare minimum kind of baseline. But, yeah, unfortunately, it took us long enough just to get people to take our no seriously, let alone pay attention to the the sort of more subtle, you know, indications that we're not a fuck yes. And, you know, something that I think women are very well, women and people who are either, like, socialized to as as women or who are queer have more experience with kind of having their own, sexual energy or their own desires and needs sort of bulldozed over by, like, a more kind of, I guess, aggressive space taking male sexual energy because of that kind of, you know, entitlement. And this is, like, not all men, obviously, but we've all been in that position where, you know, it just feels it just feels like, okay. Well, we're sort of here now, and I'm not loving this anymore. I've kinda changed my mind or, like, I'm willing to let go a certain way, but then I actually don't want, you know, any genital touch or I don't wanna be penetrated or whatever. But it's just it's just so much easier for a lot of people to kind of let it happen than to speak of. And because sometimes, like, you know, the the and and all genders do this, I'm sure, but definitely, I mean, with my personal experience, it's happened a lot more where, like, the male partner has been, like, just a little bit, like, a little bit pushy.

Freya Graf:

And in a way that's so subtle that you you're not kind of at least when I was younger, like, I didn't really think of it as, like, oh, what what the fuck? Like, as if, dude, as if you're trying to do something that I clearly am not fully on board with. Like, what do you like, why would you wanna do that? I was just kinda like, oh, you know, I'm giving him blue balls or, like, I'm kinda putting him out in some way, or I'm, like, withholding this thing that he is entitled to and that I am here for. So why would I not just, like, let let him have that? And so it might even look like, you know, being like, oh, actually, I don't really wanna I don't really wanna do anything below the waist, and then being like, okay. Cool. Yep. No worries. And then you make out for a bit longer, and then they start to put their hands down, and then you kind of pull their hand away. And then they're like, oh, sorry.

Freya Graf:

Sorry. And then, you know, 5 minutes down the track, they try again. And then eventually, you're just fucking exhausted, and you can't be bothered. And you're like, oh, I guess and you just feel that, like, consistent subtle pressure, and end up going along with stuff. And like that that kind of thing happens a lot more than, you know, the the sort of overt act of rape that we were speaking about. And the shitty thing is that, like, victims of sexual violence, the fact that, like, it's so hard to speak up or, like, speak out against it and, like, you know, thank god the me too movement happened, and it's definitely improving. But it's like, what the hell? Victims the victims of sexual violence are referred to as brave if they come forward or if they, like, fight against this. And it's like, well, okay.

Freya Graf:

That's a bit that's pretty bizarre. That kind of indicates that, like, you know, we are obviously in a society that shames victims of violence because why would they be considered brave if, like, they weren't in a pretty, like, negative environment to to sort of speak up? You know? Like, it shouldn't be considered brave. It should be the norm. It should be expected, But it's so, yeah, so infuriating when we are,

Freya Graf:

like, then often, like, weighing up whether

Freya Graf:

something that happened to us was, quote, unquote, bad enough to make a big deal out of, and and sort of trying to figure out, like, oh, but did I kind of did I kind of just let that like, was that my bad? Or, like, is it is it bad enough that it counts? You know? A lot of people are like, oh, what you know, this happened, but, like, it doesn't count, or it wasn't actually sexual assault. And yeah. So often the consequences of us speaking up can be more trouble than they're worth. And so, you know, when that speaking up is is a path that requires bravery to do so in the first place, it's obviously not happening as much as it as it needs to be. So, anyway, that is a little bit of a convoluted rant. But, yeah, it's very, very tricky in the current kind of climate and in our society to say, hey. This thing wasn't okay, and I wasn't I wasn't down with it, because often we're kinda not taken seriously or we're we're sort of shamed or we're blamed. And I think we have, like, a a socialized, tendency to take responsibility and accountability a little bit more than men do.

Freya Graf:

So it's, like, often men often that one for the team, you know, before we would actually make a man accountable.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. I mean, I think, like, it's important too to recognize this difference between assault and regret. And I think that, like, as someone who has experienced both, I just think that, like, it can feel, like, really icky to think back on certain experiences and think like, oh, I'm just gonna kind of, like, blanket this behavior under assault. And while some of it certainly is, I think it's also okay to say like, oh, I just like really felt bad and weird about that interaction. Even if it isn't considered assault, it still could be considered like, oh, you're an asshole. Like, you are a piece of trash, and I don't wanna associate myself with you. I know that, like, when I was in college and when I was in a sorority and, you know, definitely mixed feelings overall, like, really glad I did it, met my best friends, like, had a really wonderful college life. And at the same time, like, when we were kind of pressured to engage with people at frat parties and hook up with people, and that was just kind of, like, the social norm.

Freya Graf:

Like, there were so many times where I just wish that I didn't do that and where I I I would've just I could've just, you know, erased all of that, all those experiences and been totally fine. Like, they didn't add to my pleasure. They didn't add to my experience. They were kind of just regret. Like, a lot of them were just under this regret category. And I think, like, it does fall under this idea of, like, consent slash advocating for our desires and for our wants. And if we're doing that, then and we're not getting what we want in return, like, I think it's perfectly great to be like, hey. This doesn't sound like it's gonna work out.

Freya Graf:

Like, I'm gonna put my clothes back on and leave now.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that's the thing. Like, speaking out doesn't necessarily mean because a lot of these things, like you said, it's not like it's not like a a sort of deliberate rape. It's often just because it's the blind leading the blind. The guys don't know they're doing anything wrong because of the way they've been kind of brought up and how our culture is. You know? They've been they've been brought up in rape culture.

Freya Graf:

And then we also don't really know

Freya Graf:

how

Freya Graf:

to handle that, and so you don't necessarily need to, like, report someone anytime anything happens like that. But in those situations where it's a little bit more subtle and maybe, like, he doesn't know he's doing anything wrong, maybe having a conversation. And I know it's fucking hard, but, like, even just send a text afterwards and be like, hey. Like, this didn't feel comfortable for me. I felt pressured when you did this. I think you should know because it's not really cool to do that. So, like, I hope you don't do it to any other women or something like that. And it sucks that, like, we have to be doing that community service.

Freya Graf:

But, like, this whole thing,

Freya Graf:

like our job again?

Freya Graf:

Yeah. Not our job. But, like, I I definitely take it upon myself to do that because I feel like how else is, like, this sort of weaponized incompetence from men gonna be shifted, you know, because a lot of what is happening is just incompetence and they just don't know better. But they're also not being, like, called upon to do better. And, like, we're not trying to hold them to higher standards or hold them accountable, as much as we should be. And it's exhausting, and it's lame, and it's awkward, but, like, I definitely try to do that wherever I see a need. And if there is a situation that happens and even if, you know, I can't communicate it in the moment, and I wind up with, like, that regret that you were talking about and feeling icky and being like, I never wanna see him again, I'll still, like, send a text and be like, hey, and just explain. Because you never know.

Freya Graf:

Like, some people are just fuckheads, and some people just have no idea, and they've just seen a whole lot of sex scenes in movies or porn where the man was quite, like, forceful and just sort of, like, you know, animalistic and and choked someone maybe or push them up against the wall, or or just sort of, like, chased after a woman that had said no to them a bunch of times, but they were persistent.

Freya Graf:

And in the end, they got

Freya Graf:

the girl, and it was all happy romantic kind of ending. And it's like some people have just only got that to go off, and they're acting that out because they think it's normal. And it might just take someone whose body they have actually, like, you know, been intimate with to say, hey, that didn't feel good for me. And, like, I think no. So yeah. Yeah. It's tricky, but it's definitely, like, if you can, if you can do that, I think it's really valuable to do it. Because otherwise, we're all just enabling the shit.

Freya Graf:

Right. And I think like another thing that I'm coming to this conversation with is I, I just got married, like, two and a half weeks ago. Thank you. And I have been with my now husband for 8 years. And so I was 23 when we started dating, and so like, a lot of these, you know, experiences that I had when I was, like, in my late teens and early twenties, like, were so mostly much worse than, like Yeah. The the kind of intimacy and sexual like expression that you have with a partner who you trust and love and, you know, know that they have your best interests at heart, you have theirs. And so like, I think like, while we should be able to have healthy, fun, pleasurable sex with, people who are not our husbands or people who we're not in relationships with, it is harder just because, like, you haven't had the time and energy and effort that you often have when you're with someone for an extended period of time where, like, they you know, their body and you know what what they like, like, the back of your hand. And so I think that it is helpful to think through like, what kind of sex do I wanna be having? Like, does it look like partnered sex? Does it look like I'm wanting to just really focus on myself and, like, give myself pleasure and not really have to deal with other people, whether that be from a place of, like, hurt or empowerment or both, or something in between.

Freya Graf:

And, like, just recognizing that, like, random kind of one off sex, like, does not have to be your reality. Like, the more that you kind of engage with someone, if you are looking to kind of create that stable, consistent relationship, the more likely it is that you will get to know one another and really understand what each other likes and be able to have that respectful, fun experience.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. And just be more invested in one another's well-being and pleasure and enjoyment of the experience. You know? Like, there's more skin in the game. You've got that rapport and that trust and that care. And so, yeah, it's definitely it's so much easier in a in a more sort of longer term or committed relationship context for sure. And often it just feels like more trouble than it's worth if you're, you know and it's been years since I've kind of had 1 night stands or, more sort of casual sex. But when I was younger, like, it often, just felt like, oh, look. I'm never gonna see him again anyway, so whatever.

Freya Graf:

Like, fuck it. I'll just, you know, cop it. Because, yeah, you're not invested, and it's more trouble than it's worth to kinda put the work in. But, yeah, it's it's yeah. We do what we can. I've heard from so since since, like, all this sort of consent conversation has been a little bit more in the mainstream, I've heard from men, like, that are really struggling with, like, recalibrating to the new expectations of them and and this new knowledge that, like, oh god. I can't just assume. Everything's totally fine.

Freya Graf:

And they're worried because, like, you know, you they hear from from a lot of women that they they want someone to initiate and just take them, and they think it's like, they they think being cautious or or asking like, this guy in the TV show that you were talking about, asking, you know, is this okay, and what do you like? Blah blah blah. Like, some some women have sort of expressed that they see that as, like, timid or, like, not hot, not confident enough. Like, it it doesn't seem manly enough or whatever. It's all absolute fucking bullshit. But it's a thing. It's a thing. And these men are kinda like, oh my god. I kinda feel like I can't do anything right.

Freya Graf:

Like, I don't wanna ruin the moment and make her think you know, feel turned off if I'm asking too much about consent sort of stuff. But then I also am, like, now completely terrified that, you know, someone might be, in a freeze response or just fawning, due to prior experience, conditioning, whatever whatever, and that they won't be able to tell if that person is, you know, actually a no or not, or just, you know, can't communicate properly. So it's really tricky because, like, they're like, I wanna create a safe space, but I also and and then they're in their heads a lot, and then it's sort of creating, like, this interesting, head fuck of a dynamic for them. And I'd love to hear if you have any, like, advice for and it's kind of what we've already covered. You know? A lot of it's just be a fucking human. Right. Like, admit that none of us know what we're doing, and let's just be beginners about this. But, yeah, I'd love to hear your take on on that because there are a lot of well meaning men out there that are now really confused and conflicted about how to approach women, how to initiate, but still be a safe space.

Freya Graf:

Yeah, I mean, I think a few things come to mind. I think that the more, you know, you ask questions, the more likely you are to get answers to exactly what you should be doing or what the other person wants you to be doing. Now does that mean that every 5 seconds you need to ask, like, does this feel good? Does this feel good? Does this feel good? No. But I do think that especially when you're first interacting with somebody, it is really important to make sure that you both are on the same page because it's very possible that you're not. So ask questions, be kind of in the moment with that person, and make sure that they feel comfortable. And another thing that I'll say is in terms of this idea of, like, being manly or being aggressive, like, it is perfectly acceptable for you 2 to be in a role play as long as you talk about that beforehand. Like, if both of you kind of decide that you want it to be an aggressive situation, and there are boundaries and there is some sort of safe word or some sort of thing that you wanna make sure, where you're both kind of being heard if something doesn't feel right, go to town. Like, you you are in charge of your own experiences, and there is no rule book saying that you're not allowed to be aggressive if everyone involved is down for the aggression.

Freya Graf:

So, like, there is room for play, in those scenarios. And, yeah, the final thing that I'll say is, like, it's about fucking time that men are, like, concerned about their partner's behavior and their pleasure. Like, I think that it like, good. Like, we all should be concerned and really be paying attention to the ways in which that we make other people feel. And, you know, this idea of, like, oh, well, now I can't do anything. It's like, then don't do anything. Then if that's your your reaction, like, a big sigh to the idea that women and people with Volvos wanna be respected, then, like, you should go fuck yourself. Like, there's no other way to explain that.

Freya Graf:

Right? Like, you know, I think, like, it's extremely problematic to think that men who kind of have an issue with talking about consent or talking about the ways that they make other people feel, like, maybe you're not ready to interact with another person sexually. Mhmm. Maybe you need to kind of understand, like, what your own boundaries are and the ways that you, you know, are unpacking your own experiences with trauma or, you know, with expectations around gender performance and and those kinds of things. So, yeah, about time.

Freya Graf:

About fucking time. I know. It's like it's it's this classic thing of, like, that sort of happened with the, you know, the not all been stuff. It's like just like men, just because you don't think you're part of the problem does not mean you're part of the solution. And it also doesn't necessarily mean you're not part of the problem because you probably are.

Freya Graf:

Like, if

Freya Graf:

you're not part of the solution, then you're fucking part of the problem. Like, anyway, that was a whole lot of, like, me saying a bunch of similar words in different configurations.

Freya Graf:

No. No. I I get it.

Freya Graf:

I think the accountability piece and, like, men finally taking some responsibility and, like, getting uncomfortable, because, yes, it is fucking uncomfortable. But guess what? We've already been here for fucking millennia, guys. So, yeah, it's like it is about time. And, and, you know, we can also approach it with with I think it's maturity. Like, I I think it always like, it often seems to come back to, like, a lack of, like, emotional and sexual maturity for me. Like, when I see these people, it's almost like in other areas of their life, they're like, they've got, you know, their shit together or they mature in some ways, and you're like, you're a grown up. You're a grown ass man. And then you get them in the bedroom, and and it's and this is for, like, everyone, not just men.

Freya Graf:

But, yeah, people seem to be acting from this place of, like, teenage level maturity, and it's a shit show. And it is because we we didn't get, like, the education. We haven't really developed that side of of ourself, and then we haven't developed the maturity or the communication skills or the comfortability in that space because it's always been so shrouded in stigma and taboo and, you know, ignorance around the topic, which is what, you know, you you and I are trying to change with our podcast and our resources and stuff. But, yeah, it's it's an explanation, but it's not an excuse. You know? Like, we've we've all just kinda gotta do better. Otherwise, it's, you know, it's not gonna change. And it is slowly changing, but fuck it slow. Yeah.

Freya Graf:

But I'd love to fit in a little TMI story. So do Sure. TMI for us before we wrap up.

Freya Graf:

Yeah, this is just kind of a general experience. But, I in my lifetime have tried 11 different kinds of birth control. It's just kind of a fun little tidbit. Not at once, of course. But, yeah, I'm just somebody who has reacted, like, pretty poorly to many different forms of birth control. I've tried over, like, 8 different kinds of the pill since I was 16, you know, got various kinds of side effects there. I've tried the Mirena IUD. I've tried the Depo Provera shot.

Freya Graf:

I have tried the NuvaRing. And so, you know, all throughout all these different methods, basically from ages like 16 to 26. I, you know, experienced all of these kinds of side effects from like, really debilitating anxiety, like horrific, like zapping headaches, super bad acne after the Mirena had to go on Accutane, just like crazy reactions to all of these things. And so I think like, with birth control, if you're listening, and you have found a birth control method that works for you, that is awesome. But I think, like, we don't really talk about the ways in which and, you know, obviously, I'm a major advocate for birth control. That should, go without saying, but, of course, I'm gonna say it. Everyone deserves, in my opinion, free access to whatever kind of birth control method that works best for them. And at the same time, like, I hate the fact that my body and mind, you know, did not react well to so many different forms of birth control.

Freya Graf:

And so I think that, yeah, just if you're listening and you have experienced any of these, like, hard symptoms when it comes to different forms of birth control, just know that you're not alone. If you've experienced, like, debilitating period pain and super heavy periods, you know, there's so many things that we, as people with uteruses, just kind of experience every day without talking about it, without really sharing with anyone. And just know, like, it's not gross. It's not weird. You're not alone.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for that. That's that's a good little takeaway, and, I fully agree with with all of that. I've got an episode on the pill, and, you know, its effects on the body, and I'm pretty pretty opinionated. I also agree, like, birth control needs to be accessible, Great tool. Blah blah blah. All that jazz.

Freya Graf:

But I'm I'm, like, pretty opinionated about hormonal birth control and and the sort of, like, methods that are really, like, mainstream because I think they fuck up your body. But I've got plenty of episodes about that. So, and also absolutely no judgment for people that use them. And if it works for you, awesome. Like, I fucking loved having the implant on in my arm for multiple years and was like, this is the best thing ever. Mhmm. But, yeah, I guess, I've come to a really different place with it now, like, knowing what I know and being in the field that I am. But, yeah, that's wild.

Freya Graf:

Eleven different forms. Like, fuck me. You've been on a ride. Yeah. Sounds awful.

Freya Graf:

And and, like, yeah, hormones for some people, like hormonal birth control is a godsend. And they are very lucky to be able to, you know, skip their periods and like, do all these things that, you know, this technology exists. And that's great. But everybody is different, and, you know, you have the right to be able to experiment and try to figure out what works best for you.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. Yeah. Big time. Yeah. Because often often that's just a band aid solution over the top of, like, underlying symptoms that, you know, that we don't really get to the root cause of because it's easier to take a pill, and thank fuck that we can. Like, some people, I just can't even imagine, you know, having, like, debilitating endometria endometriosis pain and things like that. So

Freya Graf:

Mhmm.

Freya Graf:

It's great that there's all these options. But, yeah, I wish it wasn't just like the default that doctors chuck everyone on birth control as soon as they start getting a period because that's not cool. Right. But okay. So is there anything that you feel like we've left a bit of a gap, when it comes to consent stuff? Like, what would you like to leave listeners with around this topic that we haven't covered? If there is something, you know, just to help sort of hold hold men and hold ourselves to a higher standard with this stuff. Hey, me again. If you'd like to support the potty and you've already given it 5 stars on whatever platform you're listening on, I wanna mention that you can buy some really dope merch from the website and get yourself a labia lounge tote, tea, togs. Yep.

Freya Graf:

You heard that right. I even have labia lounge bathers or a cute fanny pack if that'd blow your hair back. So, if fashion isn't your passion though, you can donate to my buy me a coffee donation page, which is actually called buy me a soy chai latte because I'll be the first to admit. I'm a bit of a Melbourne cafe tosser like that. And, yes, that is my coffee order. You can do a one stop donation or an ongoing membership and sponsor me for as little as 3 fat ones a month. And I also offer 1 on 1 coaching and online courses that'll help you level up your sex life and relationship with yourself and others in a really big way. So every bit helps because it ain't cheap to put out a sweet podcast, into the world every week out of my own pocket.

Freya Graf:

So I will be undyingly grateful if you support me and my biz financially in any of these ways. And if you like, I'll even give you a mental BJ with my mind from the lounge itself. Saucy. And, I'll pop the links in the show notes. Thank you. Later.

Freya Graf:

We should be talking about consent and boundaries from when kids can talk through were 100 years old. And plus, it's just a conversation that has context. And when you're talking to kids about it, it's about their bodies and about their friends and the way that they touch other people or get touched or their body part names, or sharing or no hitting or things of that nature all the way through, you know, middle school or high school when we're talking about sexual interactions and the way that we we treat other people, and through, like, monogamous relationships and beyond. Like, people who get married still should be, you know, having conversations and check ins around consent and and the way that we we feel about, you know, our relationship to our bodies, ourselves and and others. And so, yeah, the the final thing is that, like, this is an essential conversation throughout the lifespan, and we we should be treating it with the utmost respect and care.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. Word. Agreed. Love your work. Thanks so much for going on. Yeah.

Freya Graf:

Thank you so much for having me.

Freya Graf:

I'll pop all of the links to your work and your podcast, in the show notes. And, yeah, highly encourage people to go and check out DV's work and listen to the potty. Just add it onto your your list, of epic sex ed podcasts along with

Freya Graf:

this one, hopefully. But, yeah, thanks so much, DB.

Freya Graf:

Thank you. Have a good one.

Freya Graf:

And that's it, darling hearts. Thanks for stopping by the labia lounge. Your bum groove in the couch will be right where you left it, just waiting for you to sink back in for some more double l action next time. If you'd be a dear and subscribe, share this episode or leave a review on iTunes, then you can pat yourself on the snatch because that's a downright act of sex positive feminist activism and you'd be supporting my vision to educate, empower, demystify and destigmatize with this here podcast. I'm also always open to feedback, topic ideas that you'd love to hear covered, questions or guest suggestions, so feel free to get in touch via my website or over on Insta. You can also send me in TMI stories to be shared anonymously on the pod. My handle is freyagraf_thelabiolounge. If my account hasn't been deleted for being too sex positive, which, you know, is always a possibility with censorship, but just in case the chronic censorship finally does obliterate my social channels, I'd highly recommend going and joining my mailing list and snagging yourself some fun freebies for the trouble at www.freaghraft.com/freebies.

Freya Graf:

Anyway, later labial legends. See you next

Freya Graf:

time.