The Real Tea on Modern Fertility, Egg Freezing, and the Baby Decision with Justine Ang Fonte
Justine Ang Fonte [00:00:00]:
This program is brought to you by Pussy Magnets.
Freya Graf [00:00:03]:
Put a minge on your fridge with a pussy magnet. Welcome, welcome, my lovely lumps. Or should I say, lovely labs. I'm so thrilled to have you here in the Labia Lounge. We're going to yarn about all things sexuality, womanhood, relationships, intimacy, holistic health and everything in between your legs. Ooh, can't help myself. Anyway, we're gonna have vag loads of real chats with real people about real shit. So buckle up.
Freya Graf [00:00:35]:
You're about to receive the sex ed that you never had. And have a bloody good laugh while you're at it. Before we dive in, I'd like to respectfully acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land on which I'm recording this. The Wurundjeri people of the Kulin Nation. It's an absolute privilege to be living and creating dope podcast content in naarm. And I pay respect to their elders, past, present and emerging. Now, if y' all are ready, let's flappin do this. Oh, my God.
Freya Graf [00:01:03]:
Is there such thing as too many vagina jokes in the one intro? Whatever. It's my podcast. I'm leaving it in. Don't panic. You're not broken. Your sex education was a piece of shit. Get your flaps out and pull up a couch. It's the Labia Lounge.
Freya Graf [00:01:23]:
Hey, gang, just before we jump into this episode, I wanted to offer you an opportunity to access my new mini course for free before I start charging for it in future. It's for people with vulvas and it's quick to complete. It's all about demystifying the female body and pleasure anatomy and getting some basic fundamentals to understand your body better. It's called Pussy Pleasure Roadmap to bedroom bliss. You can grab it on the freebies page of my website or in the show notes. It's a great little free resource to kind of dip your toe in or act as a bit of a taster for my work. So if you've ever been curious about this sort of thing and you just don't know where to start, or you want a really quick, easy, accessible, non threatening way to get the ball rolling and start working on this stuff, this is a great place to start. Hey, labial lovers, welcome back.
Freya Graf [00:02:15]:
Today we're going to be chatting about the modern fertility industry and the process of reproducing. So, you know, things like egg freezing, to freeze or not to freeze, and the decision whether to have a baby or not as a woman in your 30s or 40s, especially in this kind of like almost dystopian modern era that we're in. And I've got an amazing guest who I've actually had on before, Justine Ang Fonte. Justine is the child of Philippine immigrants and an award winning sex educator, author and consultant based in New York City. She's been featured in the New York Times, the Atlantic, npr, Glamour, and the BBC and Hulu Hulu docu series Planet Sex. I'll have to check that out actually. Justine is the author and voice of the Audible original How to talk to your kids about Sex and is the co editor of the first edition of Fundamental concepts and critical developments in Sex Education, Intersectional and Trauma Informed Approaches that was published by Rutledge Press this June. And I really need to order that.
Freya Graf [00:03:22]:
I actually saw you do a post on that and I was like, oh my God, awesome. So I put it on my list and I've been waiting and Justine and I have already done a really epic episode together which is one of my faves. So if you haven't listened to that, go back, search it up. It's called Healthy Boundaries and How to Stop ghosting. It was released almost exactly a year ago to this day, I think it was like 7th or 8th of July. So welcome back, Justine.
Justine Ang Fonte [00:03:53]:
Thank you. It's so good to be back.
Freya Graf [00:03:57]:
So as a reproductive health educator, I know you've been pretty pissed off by modern medicine's process of reproducing, egg freezing, embryo making and that. It's basically like an industry. I think that's such a key word because they really have made it into a massive money making business. And I think the ethics of profiting off potential parents desire to have children is like a little bit questionable given the actual efficacy and how much they have to go through and pay for like quite, you know, quite a slim chance of actually coming out with a baby. So I wanted to ask like, what's been your personal and professional experience with this? Because, you know, maybe there's some unpopular opinions on some of this stuff that we can discuss that I feel like we might be aligned on.
Justine Ang Fonte [00:04:50]:
Oh, totally. You know. Well, Priya, I'm learning there are like three big challenges to the fertility journey that I don't think I would have articulated until this moment. And that is a lot of people have varying opinions as to whether or not women should have the agency to control as best as they can their fertility. So even just like thinking about freezing eggs, thinking about making embryos, thinking about using reproductive technology at all, because it's so ungodlike it's so unnatural is already its own societal challenge that many women are already dealing with. So just like getting past the stigma that does exist in is already it's like own battle. Then the second is that because there's so little education about reproductive technology in sex ed, because there's so little sex ed in general, people are going into this industry without being able to manage their expectations. They're not sure how to exercise their agency and advocate for themselves.
Justine Ang Fonte [00:06:08]:
Because it's such a foreign idea to, you know, have these cells come out of your body, be cryopreserved and they just tell you all these things they ask for, you know, they send you your expensive bills and you're like, okay, I guess, yeah, this is way too advanced. Here's all my money. And you just trust that you're being protected and being taken care of. So then that's that layer. And then the third is like the emotional toll and the physical toll should you choose to go this route that it has. And so you're going through so many layers of like Planned Parenthood of that, you know, just have so many challenges that people aren't talking enough about. There's too much of a stigma, there's not enough education, and it's a very isolating experience. So I say that I've only been able to like, list what those three challenges are to this day, even though I started my fertility journey when I was 34, which was five years ago, by freezing my eggs the first time, because I am now hearing what the general public thinks about my personal story.
Justine Ang Fonte [00:07:28]:
So I had shared this story on social media and it's one of my most viral posts. I'm almost at 500k, if not already views and we have like 5,000 shares and counting. And the comment section in both TikTok and Instagram around what we'll get into. Just a segment of my journey has been filled with, I would say a majority of people who are thankful that I'm telling the story and like, you know, grateful that, you know, I know this information. I've never been informed of that. But a surprising quarter of people, and at least by the looks of the profile, masculine presenting profiles who are so judgmental and critical of even the choice to, quote, play God in their terms or being so anti feminist. Well, this is what you get for focusing on a career over motherhood. Like, you don't deserve children if this, like, I mean, just like the vitriol is so intense now.
Justine Ang Fonte [00:08:42]:
I've been behind smear campaigns in the past as a Sex educator. And this, the vitriol is not the majority of opinion, but I'm just surprised that there's even a quarter of comments that are so backwards in 2025 still. And it's always in the comic session that I get a reality check as to where we are as a society still.
Freya Graf [00:09:11]:
Yeah.
Justine Ang Fonte [00:09:11]:
So we can get into all the details, but I would say those are the three. The social stigma of trying to have some agency over your fertility journey. The lack of education and the ignorance that we are burdened with around reproductive technology. And then the physical and emotional toll of actually doing these things to your body so that you can partake in this technology. A lot of challenges.
Freya Graf [00:09:43]:
Yes. Yeah. Honestly. And you know, under each of those three subheadings, there's also little other challenges that are unexpected that come into that that people aren't talking about. And yeah, it is so wild. Like, you know, this cross section in the comments of posts like that, it's, it's. Sure, maybe it's only a quarter, but like, God, the absolute venom. It feels like it may as well be everyone, you know, like it's just crazy, like how.
Freya Graf [00:10:16]:
Yeah. How much, how reactionary and how much like, yeah, vitriol, like you said, and just emotion goes into these like angry keyboard warriors. Yeah.
Justine Ang Fonte [00:10:28]:
So fragile, so angry, so bored. You have nothing better to do. Just keep scrolling if you don't like what you are watching. No, a lot of other like viewers are now just like policing the comment section. For me, I've only responded to one comment. It was a question about what fertility center did you go to? Because I also live in New York and I'm thinking about this. So I responded to that one and every. All the other comments, good or bad, I'm just like, yeah, I'm just gonna let them do their thing.
Freya Graf [00:11:05]:
Fight over that. Yeah. Wow. Oh my God. Well, yeah, you can't, you can't like engage. It's so bad for your mental health. Especially when we're like hardwired with this negativity bias to like pick out the threats and the negative comments. Like, yeah, okay, so like tell us, we're all wondering, what was this? What was the contents of that post that went so viral?
Justine Ang Fonte [00:11:29]:
So I froze my eggs when I was 34, five years ago, and I was told two things that was, that were. That was very encouraging at the time and I learned later was misleading. So while I was in the egg freezing process, you are to basically get an ultrasound and a blood test almost every other day in the 14 day process of Basically juicing up your. Your ovaries to produce almost like 15 times the amount of eggs you would normally produce on your own. And these ultrasounds and the blood tests are to basically monitor growth and improvement and hopefully progress. And so halfway through the process, on one of my ultrasounds, my doctor had made a comment that I thought was really great. She had said, wow, you know, like, we're halfway through, and you have what we call overachieving eggs. And I was like, what does that mean? Says they're.
Justine Ang Fonte [00:12:36]:
They're really growing at a pace that is above average to other folks at this stage. And I said, is that okay? And says, no, this is fine. This is where we want to be. It's just that most people aren't at this size in their follicles at this point. So I think we're going to be able to extract a lot for you on extraction day. And I was like, okay, cool. I had joked, you know, saying, will you please say that again? And I can record you for my Asian mother to hear that I am overachieving at something. And she's like, I get it.
Justine Ang Fonte [00:13:07]:
I'm Jewish. My mom would want to hear the same thing. So it was, like, very, like, playful, fun. Great experience. Okay. I'm very optimistic. The extraction happens. And.
Justine Ang Fonte [00:13:17]:
And it was, luckily, a very seamless procedure. And I was told that they extracted 15 eggs and said, Great. How many of those 15 you extracted are actually viable? And she said, oh, all 15. And I said, oh, I didn't think that everything you would take would be ones healthy enough to freeze. And she says, no. Like, you had really great eggs. They're all really healthy. We're freezing all of them.
Justine Ang Fonte [00:13:42]:
And I was like, awesome. So I was like, doc, how many, like, kids could I have with 15 eggs, just out of curiosity? And she had said, With 15, based on the statistics, this guarantees you three live births. And I was like, oh, wow, okay, cool. Like, that's more than I would want, but good to know that I'll have, like, spare if I need to. And great. Put those in, you know, the freezer, and I'll see them when I need them, if I need them. And so five years goes by, and that was a whole, you know, its own process of, you know, do I want to have kids while I have these eggs frozen? You know, I was feeling pretty independent in how I would, you know, traverse my dating life without the pressure of needing to find, you know, someone asap. I really felt like I had.
Justine Ang Fonte [00:14:37]:
I was able to put, you know, a pause on On. On my ovaries, like, expiring too soon or whatever, because I had this, this. This insurance policy as it was. As it was sold to me. So five years down the road.
Freya Graf [00:14:56]:
Sorry to interject. You also have to pay for storage of those eggs. Right? Like, it's a very expensive process.
Justine Ang Fonte [00:15:03]:
Yeah. So the actual cost of my medications and the procedure was 16,000 US dollars. And then the storage fee was 600 bucks every six months, so became 1200 USD every year. So that's putting me already after, you know, after five years of storing and having the $16,000 procedure, over 20 grand. But it was an investment for my peace of mind, and that's priceless. So that's what I told myself. So fast forward five years. I'm in a wonderful relationship, and this relationship told me, okay, I found someone that I want to co parent with.
Justine Ang Fonte [00:15:54]:
I have frozen eggs. Let's make some embryos. And a lot of this is because I am such a planner. I am a triple Capricorn. And I was like, all right, I want to get pregnant at some point, but I know that I also have frozen eggs that I can turn into embryos to use as a reserve in the event that we struggle to get pregnant on our own. So let's make embryos. And so I returned to that clinic to get those eggs thawed, and I. Oh, let me backtrack.
Justine Ang Fonte [00:16:29]:
So I decided to thaw those eggs, and I ended up working at a different clinic for separate reasons. So I was at a. At a new clinic, and I had my eggs thawed, and I came to find that none of those 15 frozen eggs survived the thaw. So none of them could be injected with my partner's sperm. So that sperm sample is waiting. But none of the eggs survived. So. And all to do with my eggs and the fact that the doctor said, some eggs just don't like to be frozen.
Justine Ang Fonte [00:17:15]:
And so I said, I didn't even know that was a thing. Yeah, me too. Right. Now, granted, this was definitely in the fine print of the contract of the consent forms, but the operative term there is fine print. How many of us are reading all of that in reality? And how many of us are ignorantly listening to how this industry markets itself as put a pause on your biological clock. Get this insurance policy now. Do whatever you want in your career. It's never too late, right? I was told I had overachieving eggs, and I was told my 15 eggs that were retrieved were going to guarantee me three live births.
Justine Ang Fonte [00:18:10]:
That's what was told to me in Large prints. Right. And so, yeah, I did sign a consent form that did say that this is possible in the same way that you want to get LASIK surgery and says it's possible you could go blind. But that's obviously not what LASIK surgeons are going to be advertising. They're going to say, you're going to have 2020 eyesight and you're like, great. And I have a lot of other people who are able to have a successful surgery as a result. Why wouldn't I be one of them? Right. So what I was told by this doctor was that it wasn't because my eggs were faulty, it wasn't the cryopreservation being faulty.
Justine Ang Fonte [00:18:56]:
And if I had another batch, some of them could have survived. It could have been at any age that this happens to. And because I was like, these are 34 year old, quote, young eggs. I'm 39 at this point, and, you know, quote, geriatric according to, you know, this industry. And so they're like, but these were young eggs. And I told, I was told they were overachieving. And this new doctor had told me, that's what I don't like about this industry that I'm in. People think it's an insurance policy.
Justine Ang Fonte [00:19:30]:
It's not. It simply provides another avenue to potentially reproduce. And I was like, yeah, that is not how it was pitched to me at the last clinic. So this was very disappointing. I was extremely frustrated. I was thinking about the $20,000 that was paying for my peace of mind when the whole time that was a farce. But I was only finding out about it when it counted, which was when I was ready to turn them into embryos. So that was like part one of the experience and it was a lot to take.
Justine Ang Fonte [00:20:13]:
And this was all just last December that I discovered all of that.
Freya Graf [00:20:17]:
Wow. So only like six, seven months ago.
Justine Ang Fonte [00:20:22]:
Yeah.
Freya Graf [00:20:23]:
Gosh. Yeah. Gosh, that's so intense, babe. Yeah. I actually didn't realize that the eggs could sort of fail in the thawing process, let alone all of the whole batch. But the kind of chances of, like, them succeeding at each step, like, there's so many steps of this process that things could fail. And you know, like, in Australia. Yeah, it's a similar cost.
Freya Graf [00:20:48]:
And usually they get you to do, like, to harvest like two to four batches of eggs, which is like a very brutal, grueling process of injecting yourself with hormones, having, like, gnarly mood swings. Like, it's super heavy duty in terms of, like, committing to that process, let alone Doing it multiple times to get as many eggs as possible. And then out of those eggs, like, it's just such a tiny percentage that might even be viable and go to full term. And I just feel like it's really unethical how that isn't highlighted. And people do think, like, oh, cool, now I can just, like, rest easy because I've got this insurance policy and, you know, it. It actually, I've sort of heard of it making people feel like they've got more time and then maybe squandering opportunities or like, getting to the point where, like, right now's go time. And all of a sudden I'm in a position where I feel like I've wasted several years because I thought I had those years, I thought I had plenty of time. And now I'm in this spot between a rock and a hard place and.
Freya Graf [00:21:56]:
And yeah, I'm really, like, going to struggle to get pregnant now because medical professionals kind of gave me peace of mind. That was actually false. There's also this, like, hormonal test. I can't remember what it's called. I should have written it down before this interview. Maybe you'll be familiar with it, but there's like, a test that they. They do at fertility clinics and they market it as, like, come and get these levels tested. Get your, you know, your fertility tested, because we can tell you how fertile are and how viable, you know, and actually, that's misleading because that's not what it does at all.
Freya Graf [00:22:30]:
It's not. It's actually, like, scientifically not a reliable indicator of, like, how much longer you'll be fertile or how healthy your eggs are or whatever. It's just another add on that they're, like, getting money from us.
Justine Ang Fonte [00:22:44]:
Right.
Freya Graf [00:22:45]:
For. And yeah, it's just really frustrating. It's a total, like, rot.
Justine Ang Fonte [00:22:51]:
Yeah. And you know, Freya, like, every. I had to go into that clinic every other day for blood, blood work and ultrasound, and the clinic was packed every time I was there. And I just kept putting, you know, dollar signs on every forehead that was in that waiting room and being like, they're all paying what I'm paying, or at best, their company are paying what I'm paying for them. And, like, this is like, 20 grand. 20 grand. 20 grand. 20grand.
Justine Ang Fonte [00:23:23]:
And some of these women may have even been on their second and third round of doing this. Yeah, right. I only did it one round and I'm this upset.
Freya Graf [00:23:35]:
And, like, that's even before you get to the stage of paying for ivf, which is like, Even more money and even more.
Justine Ang Fonte [00:23:42]:
I'm just freezing these.
Freya Graf [00:23:44]:
Yeah, yeah, it's. It's wild, isn't it? And, you know, it's kind of like women in society are told, you know, unless you're a mother, you're kind of not serving your sole purpose on this earth and you're worthless and you're, you know, like, barren and all of it. You know, we have all this messaging, which I've done episodes about, you know, women who are childless by choice, women who are childless because of other reasons. There's a great episode with Ruby Warrington, who wrote Women Without Kids.
Justine Ang Fonte [00:24:16]:
I'm in her book.
Freya Graf [00:24:18]:
Yeah. Oh, my God. So, yeah, great episode with her there.
Justine Ang Fonte [00:24:21]:
Somewhere in that picture.
Freya Graf [00:24:23]:
Oh, that's right.
Justine Ang Fonte [00:24:25]:
Yeah.
Freya Graf [00:24:25]:
I've read her book and I. Maybe that's even how I found out about you.
Justine Ang Fonte [00:24:29]:
Oh, maybe that's how you found out about me.
Freya Graf [00:24:30]:
That could have been. And also Jody Day, who does a lot of advocacy around women without children and stuff. And, yeah, there's lots of, like, we talked a lot about the messaging around becoming a mother for women. So on one hand, we're being kind of, like, groomed to feel as though that is the be all and end all of, like, womanhood and motherhood are, like, synonymous. And so we're, like, even more, you know, urged towards parenthood. And of course, then, you know, and plus, you know, the maternal nurturing essence of a lot of people that just wants to become a mom. All of that combined means, like, we are a very, like, ripe demographic to just throw money at medical professionals making promises to us. Right? Because once you feel that biological clock ticking and you've got all these pressures externally and internally around your time running out and maybe missing out on this, like, opportunity of a lifetime and then having to become a crazy cat lady, like, of course you're going to fucking prioritize spending money on that.
Freya Graf [00:25:36]:
And I just think it's really fucking unfair that we're preying on, like, vulnerable people in a vulnerable space that are desiring something from a really beautiful place and. Yeah. And not being told of, like, the reality of that pathway. Right. Yeah.
Justine Ang Fonte [00:25:54]:
It can be such an empowering experience and really an important, beautiful one for a lot of people who are wanting a child and you just have jerks that don't want to, you know, take care of you in that process, but really are preying on your vulnerabilities and your insecurities in order for their profit.
Freya Graf [00:26:21]:
Do you know, like, what the actual. Because I don't off the top of my head. Do you know what the actual statistics around like effectiveness are? Some kind of ballpark, you know, numbers?
Justine Ang Fonte [00:26:32]:
Yeah. So I asked over and over in different ways with my doctor after the eggs didn't survive the thaw saw and I asked, you know, like, how often does this happen? And she said, it's not something you can predict. The best I can tell you is that some eggs just don't like to be frozen. And this is something that is not uncommon. So this isn't super rare and you're like the 1%, Justine. But it is something that people can experience and is often an issue when it comes to egg donors because even if not your eggs, if you were to pay, you know, you know, get egg donors and pay for those, a lot of, you know, our struggle with egg using egg donors eggs is that they also weren't so won't survive the thought. And you've paid for those. And so it's, it's hard to predict because you could have easily given us a second batch at any age and they would have been fine.
Justine Ang Fonte [00:27:39]:
And so I, I was not given a number and I was wanting a number. What was told to me is that freezing embryos has a stronger survival rate. And the doctor had told me it is above 90% for embryo thaws surviving. But I haven't heard a reliable egg freezing thaw survival rate. And it's just really hard to know. One thing that was coming up in the comments a lot were like, know it all jerks who are saying like, yeah, because those are eggs you froze. Didn't you learn in all your research, especially as someone as educated as you, that embryos have a higher survival rate? And I just like, didn't even respond to those because a lot of people were coming back at them with like, didn't you know that if you want to freeze an embryo, you have to have a viable sperm like, to be able to join that egg with. And didn't you know that men fucking suck, that it's hard to find any good sperm? So I was like, great, I didn't have to do it.
Freya Graf [00:28:53]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah. I love that people are coming in to fight those battles for you.
Justine Ang Fonte [00:28:58]:
Yeah. And like, yes, I knew that when I was 30, but the reason I was freezing my eggs is I was still single and I can, you know, barely find someone who, you know, is, was worthy enough or aligned enough for a second date, let alone a sperm donor or a co parent. So I'm not just going to make embryos. Right. And that's even. That's more expensive. So, you know, like egg freezing. Sure, I could have done more research reading the fine print or memorizing it, but they shouldn't have misled me by only mentioning the optimistic end of this journey.
Freya Graf [00:29:47]:
Yeah.
Justine Ang Fonte [00:29:48]:
And that's the thing. They had ample time to tell me in the consultation every other day when I'm there for an ultrasound. And they did it. They said overachieving and three live births.
Freya Graf [00:30:01]:
Yeah. That's so wild that they made that guarantee. That is crazy because also, like, firstly, you can't fucking guarantee live births from the egg freezing stage, like IVF. It's like less than 30%. It's like not a very large percent that actually comes to fruition. Yeah. And that's even if you get the viable eggs and then the viable embryo. Like.
Freya Graf [00:30:23]:
Yeah. There's a really good podcast on that whole kind of pipeline and that. Who On a podcast called Ladies we need to Talk, which is an Australian podcast, and they interview a bunch of fertility experts and doctors and things, and they're just very real and upfront about it and how unethical it is and how misleading it is and the actual statistics, and it is shocking. It's like, whoa. When you like actually add up, you know, the percentage of viability from egg freezing to thawing to embryos to implantation to da, da, da, da. It's like. And then the amount of money that you spend, it is wildness. Like, yeah, yeah.
Freya Graf [00:31:01]:
It's not as, like, effective and reliable as we're led to believe.
Justine Ang Fonte [00:31:06]:
Right, Right.
Freya Graf [00:31:07]:
Yeah. Yeah. So let's do the segment get pregnant and die. And then I've got a few more questions to, like, delve into. Do you have another story about your sex ed that you would be willing to share with us?
Justine Ang Fonte [00:31:21]:
Don't have sex because you will get pregnant.
Freya Graf [00:31:25]:
Don't have sex in the missionary position. Don't have sex standing up.
Justine Ang Fonte [00:31:29]:
Just don't do it. Promise.
Freya Graf [00:31:35]:
Hey, baby babes. Sorry to interrupt. I just had to pop my head into the lounge here and mention another virtual lounge that I'd love you to get around. It's the Labia Lounge Facebook group that I've created for listeners of the potty to mingle in there. You'll find extra bits and bobs, like freebies behind the scenes, or discounts for offerings from guests who have been interviewed on the potty podcast. There'll also be hopefully inspiring, thought provoking conversations and support from a community of labial legends like yourself. My vision for this is that it becomes a really supportive, educational, and hilarious resource for you to have more access to me and a safe space to ask questions you can't ask anywhere else. So head over to the links in the show notes or look up the Labia Lounge group in Facebook and I'll see you in there.
Freya Graf [00:32:21]:
And now back to the episode.
Justine Ang Fonte [00:32:24]:
Yeah, I don't know if I shared this one, but I've shared this in keynote presentations when I talk about how we can understand Gen Z a little bit better and their challenges with challenges with intimacy. I was working at a school that had hired me for a few workshops to talk about birth control and to do like, this assembly presentation with their whole high school. And what I was intrigued about before being invited was the school psychologist had shared with me the results of an anonymous survey that the student paper had done. It's claimed to be a progressive school. They wanted to understand the sexual health of the student population. And one of the questions was about preferences. And the question was steered towards cishet boys and whether or not they prefer vaginal intercourse over oral sex. And I was really surprised by the findings that the young boys had rated oral sex to be their preference over vaginal sex.
Justine Ang Fonte [00:33:43]:
So when I visited the school, I asked that at the assembly of 500 students. And I said, you know, I noticed from your student paper the results of your sexual health survey indicated that the cishet boys prefer oral over vaginal sex. I'm really curious as to why this was surprising to me since vaginal sex has historically been, you know, deemed like the holy grail of, quote, real sexual. So I'm just wanting to understand your school community a little bit better. And one of the young men raised his hand to answer the preference and I guess speak on behalf of the respondents of the survey and said, yeah, it's because with oral sex, we don't have to look the girl in the eye.
Freya Graf [00:34:39]:
Oh, my God.
Justine Ang Fonte [00:34:40]:
And like, my heart just sank, right? I was there to talk about birth control, contraception, you know, all this stuff. And I'm like, we need to not be talking and emphasizing sex ed to be about pregnancy prevention because we are missing out on talking to young people about intimacy, connection, eye contact, communication, body language, right? And if we did that emotional intelligence training better and more comprehensively, we would by default be already addressing consent, addressing pleasure, addressing, you know, care, health care, all of that stuff, right? But we are in this generation, we're teaching this generation who were born into screens. And so there's such a comfort with communication and understanding people only through the benefit of what A screen can convey. So the amount of discomfort that comes with looking a person in the eye, having a live verbal conversation with them, is just so amplified in discomfort when intimacy already is awkward for, you know, boomers, for millennials, for, you know, Gen Y. All of the older generations already have struggled with intimacy because it's awkward now. It's just amplified because of this screen generation. And so when I'm listening to this, I was like, that comment, that answer right there is the real core of our problem in understanding our autonomy, our bodies, and each other. We have such an aversion to real connection and empathy that now people are doing whatever and prefer, preferring whatever that doesn't include something as simple as eye contact.
Freya Graf [00:37:10]:
Oh, my God. So beautifully put. And I'm also just, like, wracked with, like, horror and sadness about that answer. Um, and. And it's also just kind of crazy to me that, like, you know, he felt comfortable and confident to say that in front of the whole school assembly. Like, it's just so normalized and so okay to, like, not want to have eye contact.
Justine Ang Fonte [00:37:36]:
Yeah, yeah, that's a great point. Like, yeah, I'm happy to speak on behalf of all the guys here because they're not going to disagree with me.
Freya Graf [00:37:46]:
And, like, I don't care of the girls here because, like, yeah, you know.
Justine Ang Fonte [00:37:50]:
Yeah, I'm just gonna tell them, nobody wants to look you in the eye, girls. This is just how it is.
Freya Graf [00:37:54]:
Just suck my dick.
Justine Ang Fonte [00:37:55]:
Like, yeah, just get this thing over with. This one way street. Just do this thing. And so, like, whenever I teach sex ed, I try to emphasize, you know, like, this is if. If sex is something you want to do, and especially at this age, I want you to think about what your purpose is, what the intention is. Is it to actually show affection? Is it to actually be intimate and connect with another person? Or is it to increase your body count? Is it to tell people that you did this thing? Is it a means to an end that has to do with your reputation? Or are you actually trying to connect with another human being?
Freya Graf [00:38:50]:
Yeah. Oh, my God. Yeah. I feel like the amount of, like, just people performing sex on each other, that they've just. They're just literally performing it like they've seen in porn versus, like, remembering or even, you know, knowing in the first place that actually, like, sex isn't about that at its core. Like, it's. It should be. And the way that it can be best enjoyed is, like, through intimacy and connection and, like, shared reciprocal pleasure and communication.
Freya Graf [00:39:22]:
And it's just so crazy. It's just been, like, reduced to this, like, mechanical. I do this to you, you do this to me. It's, like, very extractive as well. I feel like with the heterosexual dynamics, it's very much like, how can I extract something from the woman and get something from her? Or, you know. Oh, God. Yeah. Well, thank God there are people, like.
Justine Ang Fonte [00:39:45]:
And you were mentioning, like, you know, they're performing sex just like what they see with porn being performed, yet they lack the literacy and the remembrance that porn is performance, because then they have internalized what their bodies should look like, what they should be doing to other people, how they should be judging and regarding people of these different identities. Right. Which leads to such harm in so many ways. So, like, they're mimicking what they know is performance, but then they're not understanding that this performance also means that that's not what bodies actually are supposed to do or what they look like organically. And you're just thinking, oh, this is what's expected of me. And so it's just, like, so frustrating. And then we're in schools that don't want to talk about this, and we're. There's households that don't want to talk about this, or, like, this is a parent's job.
Justine Ang Fonte [00:40:42]:
Well, then do your job, parents, because you think this is age inappropriate. It's your sixth graders that are asking me questions about sex toys, something that is age inappropriate, yet it's your sixth grader that is initiating this conversation. And why with me, a complete stranger, if you are creating such a safe household for them to be asking you the questions, yeah, fucking her. I'm doing this because you're not doing your job.
Freya Graf [00:41:16]:
Someone's got to. And, like, when these kids, because they literally are kids, like, the age that kids are coming across porn, they're not even teens. They're children. Like, these kids are watching porn as their very first point of reference for sex and, you know, quote, unquote, intimacy. And so, of course they're going to see that as basically an instructional tutorial, because what else have they got to go off? So then when they do, you know, have an opportunity to be intimate in real life, like, what the fuck else are they going to do other than mimic what they've seen? Because that's all they know about what sex is, because no one else is talking about it. No one else is answering their questions. No one else is, like, offering them an alternative perspective or, like, approach. And it's just sort of crazy that, like, before kids have even.
Freya Graf [00:42:03]:
And Teens have even, like, seen a real person nude or kissed someone or touched a real body. They have seen porn. So it's like they just don't even get a chance to explore things organically and follow their body's lead and actually ask the other person, like, what they like, what they don't like. What should we do? How do we go about this? Because they've already seen porn, so they're just going to automatically just perform that. And I had a woman on my podcast the other day, Clementine, Clementine Morrigan, who's incredible, and I'm pretty sure it was her that said, like, something along the lines of the fact that, like, you know, kids and teenagers have access to, like, the Internet, pretty unrestricted, like, unfettered access to the Internet and porn from such a young age, like the porn industry and them watching that is like sexual assault. It's like a child's, like, first, sort of often first experience of like, a pretty much sexual assault.
Justine Ang Fonte [00:42:58]:
Sexual assault.
Freya Graf [00:42:59]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, God. Yeah. It's bleak. Well, that was a really perfect get pregnant and die example. Like, that's so sort of shocking and eye opening to hear that, like, you're on the front lines having access to teens and getting to ask these question, getting, you know, intel about these surveys. Like, that's really, really valuable information that, like, I didn't. I didn't know I have access to.
Freya Graf [00:43:33]:
So thank you for sharing that with us and. And hopefully. Yeah, I don't know, this kind of galvanizes some parents into. Yeah. Getting onto it a bit earlier and actually starting to have these conversations. So to jump back to the reproductive industry, fertility industry, do you feel like this, like, really quite clinical, kind of labor intensive, you know, taking the hormones, having the scans, doing the injections, that's quite stressful and very strenuous on the body, mind you, as well. Like, you know, to be able to hold down, like, a job and maybe even, you know, your relationships and all this stuff while you're juiced up on, like, turbo amounts of hormones. Yeah.
Freya Graf [00:44:23]:
Do you feel like that approach, like, the very medical route could be supplemented or maybe even just eclipsed or replaced by a more holistic kind of roadmap to health and fertility and perhaps like, a better understanding of our bodies and our cyclical needs? And is there a way an avenue that people could look to instead of just kind of trusting the medical professionals to have it?
Justine Ang Fonte [00:44:51]:
Yeah, I. I want to believe that the answer is yes. However, it was not marketed to me as strongly or as convincingly as the reproductive technology routes and, you know, from, from, from medicine and it, it doesn't seem as, as popular enough from my own network of people where if I knew I needed to just eat these things or I needed to take these supplements or, you know, time it up with my cycle or something, I mean, I know that those things exist and, you know, now that I'm in the process of trying to get pregnant, I'm starting to see, like, the algorithm change a little bit on my own social media because I'm sure my phone is listening to these conversations. And so there's all these, like, trackers that are out there and, you know, and methods. But I, I, I was definitely victim to what was just louder.
Freya Graf [00:45:51]:
Yeah.
Justine Ang Fonte [00:45:52]:
And at the same time, to be honest, I don't think I regret going that route. And I've actually had two other procedures after I found out that the eggs didn't survive in this new clinic. And I've had some success from it. And so I don't regret the process though. But I'm, as I told you, I'm a triple Capricorn and like, in order to be able to have a healthy or functional relationship with me, you need to manage my expectations. That's really all that I was asking. And I think that beyond the contract in size 4 font, multiple pages, I need you to explain it to me as if I'm a kindergartener, because this is stuff that even someone with two master's degrees and who is in the sexuality, reproductive health like field is not an endocrinologist. So you need to explain these things to me and give me what is possible on both ends of the spectrum so that I know what I'm signing up for.
Justine Ang Fonte [00:47:05]:
My LASIK surgeons were more clear about the potential of get it going blind than the endocrinologist that I was working with and the reproductive health specialist that I was working with about the possibility that me freezing eggs might not actually be something I can use when I'm ready to use it. Like, they didn't tell me the failure rates. It was included in the paperwork. But these factories of a clinic are really just trying to push you in and out and make, you know, the next 20 grand. So I really just needed my expectations managed. And I think that that would have made me feel better that, okay, so I have some peace of mind that I have this potential avenue, but I can't rely on it. So what else are you going to do, Justine? But it wasn't advertised that way. So I was really in this, like, bliss and Ignorance, thinking that I'm fine, I've got an insurance policy and all of that.
Justine Ang Fonte [00:48:13]:
And so, you know, I am looking at other methods too, because hopefully I won't have to use the embryos that I have frozen. But I am at the stage, you know, in a privileged way, to be able to lean on that if I need to. And I'm already managing my expectations that when those embryos are thawed, even though they're telling me it's about 90% survival rate, I might be the 10%, but already I just feel like I have more agency because I've been better informed now and. And that's really all that I was asking for. So it's not so much that, like, what was an alternative, but more like what would been a big edit to this experience. Should you go through it again? If you said, should you have the opportunity to go through it again?
Freya Graf [00:49:04]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's just a bit more transparency up front, you know, because I feel like managing expectations is so important for, like, your entire kind of experience of that process and whether it feels empowering and you're on the journey and they're on the journey with you versus, like, you know, they've just extracted money from you and led you astray with false promises and confidence about, you know, that. There's actually an incredible book if you do want to just even to boost your sort of, like, chances of, you know, embryos implanting. Even if you are going down the medical route with egg freezing and ivf, or if you're not, it's just phenomenal for, like, you know, your health and hormones and fertility. But there's a book called Woman Code by Alys Vitti, and there's so much amazing stuff in there. I know that, like, that's helped a lot of people get pregnant, even people that are, you know, have been medically diagnosed as infertile. A lot of it is just so dietary, lifestyle, you know, hormone that you can actually, like, influence those. And sure, it's a bit more, you know, intention and work and it's.
Freya Graf [00:50:20]:
It's so nice to just like, hand over the power and the responsibility to a medical professional. But we actually can do a lot ourselves. And so, yeah, Woman Code is really, really amazing for that. And the Fifth Vital Sign, which is about your menstrual cycle. There's a lot of good stuff in there about fertility. So if anyone's interested, tell me, though, you ended up paying someone to help you with this big baby decision. What led you to hiring someone to help you Decide whether you should have a kid or not. And who do you even hire for that kind of support? Like what? What does that involve?
Justine Ang Fonte [00:50:56]:
Yes, let's pivot to the baby decision.
Freya Graf [00:50:59]:
Excuse this quick interruption. I'm shamelessly seeking reviews and five star ratings for the potty because as I'm sure you've noticed by now, it's pretty fab. And the more people who get to hear it, the more people I can help with it. Reviews and ratings actually do make a big difference to this little independent podcaster. Really easy to just quickly show your support by taking that simple act of either leaving five stars for the show on Spotify, or even better, writing your written review and leaving five stars over on Apple Podcasts. Or if you're a real overachiever, you can do them both. That would be mad. If you're writing a review though, just be sure to use G rated words, because despite the fact that this is a podcast about sexuality, words like sex can be censored and your review won't make it through the gates.
Freya Graf [00:51:51]:
Lame. Anyway, I would personally recommend doing that right now while you remember, just to get on top of it and let me know you're with me on this journey. Thanks, gang. Enjoy the rest of the epi.
Justine Ang Fonte [00:52:02]:
So my partner and I knew that we wanted to be together and we wanted to have a life together long term. But we kept hitting a wall as to whether or not we wanted to have kids. Not even just together, but, like, do we want to have kids? Before we even met, we were like, on the fence. Because those five years of that peace of mind, I had, you know, really liberated the possibilities for me. But then I found somebody that I was like, wow, I could really co parent with this person. And I've wanted to be a mom before, but I've loved the, you know, newfound independence that I've had these last five years. And we were confused. And honestly, it all started because I was thinking about whether or not I should.
Justine Ang Fonte [00:52:46]:
Should renovate my kitchen. And at this, you know, time I had, I own my apartment in New York City and he was living with me and I was saying, like, should we do this? And he was just like, I mean, maybe like, let's run costs and whatever. And I was like, well, in New York City, this type of, like, renovation could take years and it could cost a lot of money. Is this money that I should probably be saving for a kid? And it's like, oh, well, I don't know, right? Do we want kids? And I was like, I don't Know, and then we were thinking, like, all right, well, we knew we wanted to get married. And before we were even, like, getting engaged, we had to start thinking about, like, well, if we, you know, if we get married, like, do we want a big wedding? Do we want a small wedding? Do we want four weddings? Like, what do we want? And you're like, well, should we maybe be humble and, like, small about it because we might want to have a kid? And so we're like, oh, my God. So, like, so many of these, like, big decisions were getting stunted because we didn't have a decision as to whether or not we wanted to be parents. We both love kids. I work with kids, and we're good with kids.
Justine Ang Fonte [00:54:00]:
But we really loved our independence. So we just kept hitting a wall every single time, and we couldn't. This lack of certainty just stalled our ability to, like, move forward because we're like, oh, should we move abroad? Like, we're having so much fun together in New York City, but maybe we want to live, you know, somewhere else. But what if we want to have a kid? Everything was just like this damn kid question. So we started sharing, like, the struggle with some of our friends. Some child free, some parents. And one of them said to us, you know, you should reach out to my friend who is child free. Her and her partner actually hired a therapist that specializes in the baby decision.
Justine Ang Fonte [00:54:45]:
And I have another set of friends who worked with her, coincidentally, and they decided to become parents. And so both of these pairs of friends went very different routes, but worked with the same coach, and they're really happy with their decisions. You should talk to them. And I was like, wait, what? There's a coach for this? And I'm like, of course there should be a coach for this, right? I just didn't even know to, like, research it. So we met with those friends first, and they told us about this woman, and they're like, yeah, you know, she has a book out. If you don't want to meet with her yet and pay, like, her coaching fee, just read her book. I'm like, oh, yeah, that's an easy way to start. So the book is called the Baby Decision.
Justine Ang Fonte [00:55:25]:
It came out in the 80s, and it was highly controversial because she was talking about options that were child free. God forbid a woman is child free. And then, you know, 40 years down the road, she has her second edition out. And that's the edition that I read and my partner read. And we're like. And I was just in, like, enamored with not only how articulate this book was, but how, how supportive it was in both directions and validating and affirming it was. It was so well written. I was like, baby, decision aside, this is a good decision making book because of the exercises that are prescribed here on what you should do if you're thinking X or Y, a or B, blue or red, whatever.
Justine Ang Fonte [00:56:17]:
And I was like, whoa, this is so cool.
Freya Graf [00:56:19]:
Cool.
Justine Ang Fonte [00:56:20]:
So I was like, I want to find out how much she costs. Like, let me reach out to her. You know, does she even have any availability? And when I reached out, she had one spot available for like this season. And I was like, great. In US dollars, I believe she was like 350 for the first two sessions, and then it was like 250 or something for any sessions after that. And I was told that typically she works with couples for three to five sessions and that's it. So five sessions and you're done. You have a decision made by then, you know, So I was like, all right, so if I do the math, like, this is, you know, an investment for this amount, but that's probably it.
Justine Ang Fonte [00:57:02]:
It's not like an ongoing thing. So my partner and I decided to book her for our first session. And in the consultation conversation, which was just 15 minutes, that was completely free, she first talks to us about, you know, like, what brought us to her so that she can understand what being on the fence meant to us. And then she gave us pre work. Before our first paid session and the first session, we were to have emailed her two different lists. The first list was about the things that we look forward to in our life that we haven't yet done. And the second list are the things that you would look forward to when being a parent. And we're supposed to fill out these lists independently, not share them with each other, and then email it to her separately.
Justine Ang Fonte [00:57:55]:
And the her I'm referring to is the queen, Merle Bombardieri, who, since meeting with her for our four sessions, got a feature in Time magazine. So I have no idea how much more booked she is or how much more expensive she might be, but we felt so privileged to work with her. And in our four sessions with her, there would be these exercises that came out in the book but that we would actually do with her that came to light from somatic experiences. What was our body signals communicating to us about even a hypothetical decision that we had made. And they were so fortifying to know that it wasn't just a, you know, pro con list and which list is longer, but once coming to a decision on, you know, session one versus a different decision in session two. What was happening in our body? Like, were we sweating? Did we get goosebumps? Did we start crying? Like, what was our body doing? And how is it reacting based on, you know, thinking about these prompts? And I was just really encouraged by this because it made me feel it take. It took the obligation as a woman out of the equation. It took the obligation out as a Filipina who was raised Catholic out of the equation.
Justine Ang Fonte [00:59:26]:
And just truly innately, what does Justine and little inner child Justine say about this? And what does future Justine say about this? And luckily, my partner and I were on the same aligned page in after each of these exercises because she'll sometimes have couples where these experiences will lead to disagreement in their final decision. So then how do you navigate your marriage or your relationship when you have this, like, new decision made? Thanks to Merle, but it's different from each other's. And so we were on the same boat and we're like, okay, so we're not going to renovate the kitchen. We're not going to live abroad right now. We're going to start saving up a certain amount for the type of wedding we want to have with keeping some on reserve for trying to get pregnant, you know, at this time in my life. Right. And so, you know, the Capricorn was feeling very supported in this whole, you know, process and journey. But I really love the process working with Merle, and I wish that I learned of her a lot earlier.
Justine Ang Fonte [01:00:47]:
And I recommend her book. Even if you're not thinking about babies, you're just trying to figure out a decision, you know, for yourself, professionally, personally, whatever. But the baby decision, it was such a great decision making resource.
Freya Graf [01:01:04]:
I'm like, literally writing that down right now because, yeah, like, decision making in general, whether it's around babies or not, can be so challenging. And I'm finding it more and more challenging these days. Just like, I don't know, I think things that I always felt pretty decisive about, the world's changed so drastically and my circumstances have changed, and I'm not where I thought I would be at this age with the resources I thought I would have. And so actually, like, I'm having to reassess so many decisions, including that one. So I'm gonna read that book. And she sounds like a bit of a big shot, but I'm gonna still see if I can get her on the podcast one day.
Justine Ang Fonte [01:01:41]:
Tell her I sent you and maybe she'll say yes.
Freya Graf [01:01:44]:
Yeah.
Justine Ang Fonte [01:01:45]:
Wow.
Freya Graf [01:01:46]:
Well, that's like really, really cool to hear about that process. And I love that it sounds. Yeah. Like more nuanced than just a pros and cons list and very much based in the somatic sense in your body. Like that's beautiful that she's using that as well as the practical kind of rational stuff. Right. Because it is the like arguably the biggest decision you'll ever make in your entire life. And it's wild that we don't.
Justine Ang Fonte [01:02:11]:
After her title.
Freya Graf [01:02:13]:
Oh really?
Justine Ang Fonte [01:02:14]:
Yeah, like how to decide or how to make the biggest decision of your life or something like that. The baby book. How to make the biggest decision.
Freya Graf [01:02:21]:
Okay. Because it really is. And I feel like we don't like there's not enough stock put in that people don't treat it like it's the biggest decision of your life. It is. And maybe the second biggest is like, who if you're going to be in a monogamous partnership and co parent with someone, like choosing who you're going to do that with is like also enormous. And yeah, it's just really cool that you like sort out, you know, your sort of like Capricorny type A personality was like, right, let's go and see someone about this and have some sessions and make it. Yeah, great, great. Good on you.
Freya Graf [01:02:53]:
Because I didn't know that that was really even a thing, but it makes so much sense that it would be totally. Yeah. Amazing. So do you have anything you want to like, I guess leave people with in terms of like things that you, you want, you know, maybe other women to know that you learned from all of these processes. Obviously like you've already kind of peppered these learnings throughout, but is there anything we haven't kind of covered off that you want to make sure you leave people with?
Justine Ang Fonte [01:03:22]:
You know what I wrote on my Google notes? Like a list of things.
Freya Graf [01:03:30]:
Right. Love.
Justine Ang Fonte [01:03:30]:
That they don't tell you.
Freya Graf [01:03:32]:
That's so good. We're getting to be privy to a personal list of gripes and things that they don't tell you. That's so handy.
Justine Ang Fonte [01:03:45]:
If I can find. Oh, hold on. Oh, here we go. This is what I titled my Google notes. What they don't tell you before you freeze your eggs. Okay. The procedure doctor who is going to retrieve your eggs is not necessarily the same doctor that you have been working with in the whole process. So it's basically whoever is on call at the time that you are a blown up balloon and ready to have your uterus deflated.
Justine Ang Fonte [01:04:16]:
So that was a surprise to me and that was not told until two days prior for my trigger shot. Okay, you're going to be seeing Dr. So. And so I'm like, no, that's not my doctor. So that was one. You will likely purchase more medications than you actually will need. And that might not seem like a big deal if you are privileged with, you know, health insurance that covers a lot of your regular medications. You're like, oh, I only paid $3 for this.
Justine Ang Fonte [01:04:45]:
That is not the caliber of medications when it comes to IVF world. These are like one small, like tube of powder that's mixed with saline that you have to do yourself. And if you are even just purchasing more than you actually need, that one tube right away is like $45. And that's like a shot of your many shots over the course of 14 days. And if you don't have enough at the time that you need to have that injection, it fucks up the whole process and compromises your ability to be able to retrieve when you're supposed to retrieve. So, like, it's always better that you have more than you need. But then what happens to all the unused ones? You end up donating them. And so that was a really frustrating process the first time around because I didn't know that I would be paying thousands extra because I was just told, well, you should buy another box.
Justine Ang Fonte [01:05:45]:
And I only ended up needing one vial in the six pack.
Freya Graf [01:05:50]:
Oh, yeah.
Justine Ang Fonte [01:05:52]:
And so then finding a pharmacy that will actually sell them to you by vial instead of buy pack. Okay. And then the big one that we've all talked about. Eggs can be damaged just by being frozen. They won't necessarily all survive the thaw, and they might not activate when you're ready to use them. And there is no predicting if you are that person who happens to have that particular batch that won't like to be frozen. So there's no way of them testing or, you know, predicting with any, you know, tests and results to say, oh, you're. You have the type of eggs that don't want to be frozen, or the batch that we got aren't the type that want to be frozen.
Justine Ang Fonte [01:06:43]:
You just try your luck and you cross your fingers and hope for the best, and that's what you're left with. So those were the three main things that when you're all hormoned up now, you can see how the mood swings in a direction of infuriated.
Freya Graf [01:07:06]:
And fair enough, too. Oh, my God, it sounds like such an ordeal. So, yeah, little, little reward sometimes before we wrap up. Do you have a TMI story for us.
Justine Ang Fonte [01:07:27]:
Can I pass?
Freya Graf [01:07:29]:
Totally, yeah, that's fine.
Justine Ang Fonte [01:07:31]:
Okay, I, I want to make sure that it's one that like, I can tell that won't kill my parents because they're both alive still and sometimes they like to listen to the podcast I'm on. So I want to make sure I think of one that might take me a minute. So let me just pass on that one.
Freya Graf [01:07:51]:
That's so fine. I can sub one in. That's just springing to mind. It's not mine. It's an anonymous one. I set up the lady lounge at events sometimes and I have a little box where people can write them and put them in the box anonymously. And I just read this one that said I'm not going to remember the exact wording, but it was like one time I had anal sex and I accidentally like fell off the bed and shit myself at the same time as his penis withdrew. And then the poo landed in my hand and I caught it as I was like, oh my gosh.
Justine Ang Fonte [01:08:29]:
And I was like, whoa. Did he see it? Hey, did he see it or was he not like, oh, I gotta go to the bathroom real quick?
Freya Graf [01:08:38]:
I have no idea. It was literally written in just pen on this little sheet of paper and it stopped there. I didn't know who it was from. I couldn't ask follow up questions. It was just like the funniest thing because I didn't actually read it until ages after the event. I forgot to like go through the box and have a little look. And then one time I was like, oh, I should read some of these. And like most of them were like, so, so.
Freya Graf [01:09:01]:
And honestly, there was a lot of people at this event that maybe just didn't actually get the brief properly and just were drunk and wrote weird random. One of them was like. One of them was like, I actually don't like my grandma. Oh, stuff like that. And so this one, this one was like, oh, okay, you, you really nailed the brief here. That is such a TMI story and it's so funny, but I wish I could ask some follow up questions about that. I know.
Justine Ang Fonte [01:09:30]:
Well, who knows? They might be a listener and they are listening right now. And if you are, we want the part two.
Freya Graf [01:09:38]:
Yeah, we want details, honey. Cool. Hey, me again. If you'd like to support the potty and you've already given it five stars on whatever platform you're listening on, I want to mention that you can buy some really dope merch from the website and get yourself a labia Lounge tote tea togs. Yep, you heard that right. I even have labia lounge bathers or a cute fanny pack if that'd blow your hair back. So if fashion isn't your passion though, you can donate to my Buy me a Coffee donation page, which is actually called Buy me a Soy Chai Latte because I'll be the first to admit I'm a bit of a Melbourne cafe tosser like that. And yes, that is my coffee order.
Freya Graf [01:10:21]:
You can do a once off donation or an ongoing membership and sponsor me for as little as three fat ones a month. And I also offer one on one coaching and online courses that'll help you level up your sex life and relationship with yourself and others in a really big way. So every bit helps because it ain't cheap to put out a sweet podcast into the world every week out of my own pocket. So I will be undyingly grateful if you support support me and my biz financially in any of these ways. And if you like, I'll even give you a mental BJ with my mind from the lounge itself. Saucy. I'll pop the links in the show notes. Thank you later.
Freya Graf [01:11:02]:
Awesome. Well, I am going to put a link to your work in the show notes. The book, this new one that you've co edited sounds like on it. I mean, it's more of a kind of like industry, like textbook.
Justine Ang Fonte [01:11:16]:
Right?
Freya Graf [01:11:16]:
Like, but I'm gonna get that straight away. Yeah. And. And definitely listen to Justine in my other episode if you haven't already. Thank you so much for your time today, my love. It's been awesome seeing you again and congrats on the recent weddings and yeah, I wish you all the best. Can you please keep me in touch? Maybe we can do like a part two of this down the track when you're pregnant.
Justine Ang Fonte [01:11:41]:
Would love it. Would love it. Yeah. Thank you so much and for your trust in me for it. It means a lot.
Freya Graf [01:11:49]:
And that's it, darling hearts. Thanks for stopping by the Labia Lounge. Your bum groove in the couch will be right where you left it, just waiting for you to sink back in for some more double L action next time. If you'd be a dear and subscribe, share this episode or leave a review on itunes. Then you can pat yourself on the snatch because that's a. A downright act of sex positive feminist activism. And you'd be supporting my vision to educate, empower, demystify and destigmatise with this here podcast. I'm also always open to feedback topic ideas that you'd love to hear covered questions or guest suggestions, so feel free to get in touch via my website or over on Insta.
Freya Graf [01:12:29]:
You can also send me in TMI stories to be shared anonymously on the pod. My handle is freyagrafthelabielounge. If my account hasn't been deleted for being too sex positive, which is always a possibility with censorship. But just in case the chronic censorship finally does obliterate my social channels, I'd highly recommend going and joining my mailing list and snagging yourself some fun freebies for the trouble at www.freyagraf.com freebies. Anyway, later labial Legends. See you next time.