Tackling Performance Anxiety for All Genders with Christine Rafe

Freya Graf:

This program is brought to you by Pussy Magnets.

Christine Raiff:

Put a minge on your fridge with a pussy magnet.

Freya Graf:

Welcome, welcome, my lovely lumps. Or should I say, lovely labs. I'm so thrilled to have you here in the Labia Lounge. We're going to yarn about all things sexuality, womanhood, relationships, intimacy, holistic health and everything in between your legs. Ooh, can't help myself. Anyway, we're going to have vag loads of real chats with real people about real shit. So buckle up, you're about to receive the sex ed that you never had. And have a bloody good laugh while you're at it.

Freya Graf:

Before we dive in, I'd like to respectfully acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land on which I'm recording this. The Wurundjeri people of the Kulin Nation. It's an absolute privilege to be living and creating dope podcast content in naam. And I pay respect to their elders, past, present and emerging. Now, if y' all are ready, let's flappin do this. Oh, my God. Is there such thing as too many vagina jokes in the one intro? Whatever. It's my podcast.

Freya Graf:

I'm leaving it in. Don't panic. You're not broken. Your sex education was a piece of shit. Get your flaps out and pull up a couch. It's a labia lounge. Hey, gang, just before we jump into this episode, I wanted to offer you an opportunity to access my new mini course for free before I start charging for it in future. It's for people with vulvas and it's quick to complete.

Freya Graf:

It's all about demystifying the female body and pleasure anatomy and getting some basic fundamentals to understand your body better. It's called Pussy Pleasure Roadmap to Bedroom Bliss. You can grab it on the freebies page of my website or in the show notes. It's a great little free resource to kind of dip your toe in or act as a bit of a taster for my work. So if you've ever been curious about this sort of thing and you just don't know where to start, or you want a really quick, easy, accessible, non threatening way to get the ball rolling and start working on this stuff, this is a great place to start. Hello, my lovely labial leg bombs. Welcome back. Today is going to be a really exciting chat because we're covering a challenge that I'd say a pretty decent majority of my clients come to me experiencing and, like, wanting some help to overcome, and that is performance anxiety.

Freya Graf:

So I think this episode will be really useful for a lot of people, whether it's you that's experiencing the performance anxiety or whether it's a partner or a lover. We're going to cover how performance anxiety can take different shapes and forms for everyone and the ways that it can show up in the bedroom for different genders. We're going to cover how it impacts your sex life, your orgasm, your relationships, your confidence and what we can do about it to kind of free ourselves from the pressure and the anxiety that can often come with attempts to perform well in the bedroom. And I've got with me Christine Raiff, a sex and relationship therapist, media expert and owner director of Good Vibes Clinic, which is a multidisciplinary practice specializing in sex, relationships and trauma therapy in Gadigal, AKA Sydney. Christine's career began after her own struggles with desire and sexual well being at the age of 21, when she realized how little accessible, shame free support existed. This led her to complete a master's in Sexual health, additional studies in couples therapy, embodied counseling and trauma informed modalities, including EMDR and Trauma Informed Yoga. Damn overachiever. Love that for you.

Freya Graf:

And today Christine supports individuals and couples in private practice while also partnering with brands, media and events to spark open stigma free conversations about sex, intimacy and pleasure. And we have that in common. So I'm really excited to chat to you. Christine, welcome.

Christine Raiff:

Thank you so much for having me.

Freya Graf:

I love that like at the, at the fresh little young age of 21 you're just like, right, I'm gonna tackle this and I'm not only gonna tackle it, I'm gonna go and like get hella educated on this and like.

Christine Raiff:

Just like one, one sexual issue at a time.

Freya Graf:

Yeah, well we're on the same mission there. Which is why I was really pumped when you agreed to jump on the potty with me. And in classic laby lounge fashion, I've, I've over prepared and there's way too many questions and different things that I'd love to talk about and they're all just dumped on a page. So we'll just see where we go with this. But I want it to be very, very practical and very relatable because it is such a common challenge that a lot of people are facing and like my sort of two cents before we get stuck in is like performance anxiety. Like I even rebel against this phrase because it's probably like probably one of the most problematic aspects as I see it, that contributes to even causing the anxiety in the first place is the fact that we're Approaching and seeing sex as a performance, as something to perform naturally, any performance in life, we're aiming for it to be good and to pull it off well so that others can enjoy our performance. So this already feels like pressure, and I find it really counterintuitive to good sex and intimacy if we're having to perform at all. So, anyway, I'm getting ahead of myself here, but can you give us a rundown on what exactly is performance anxiety? And then we can kind of get into the different ways that it presents for different people.

Christine Raiff:

Yeah, for sure. And completely 100% agree on everything that you just said. Like, the. Even the word performance, when you connect it with sex, just feels icky. And I think it speaks to, like, just. Yeah, a lot of things in life. It's like we kind of put on a mask and we perform a version of ourselves, and we want people to accept and to celebrate and to, you know, really like. Like us for that performance rather than it being potentially authentic.

Christine Raiff:

And. Yeah. So, I mean, performance anxiety, as it's sort of like, big umbrella term, is like an anxiety or a stress or distress about how, well, like, our perception of performance is. And I guess this, like, idea of performance really, for most people or most folk that I've met or spoken to relates to, like, what we believe sex should look like or what it should be. So it's very focused on, like, the goal or of sex. So getting and maintaining erections, not coming too quickly, but not taking too long to come, having an orgasm at the right time and, you know, being able to have penetrative sex, and penetrative sex being the real grand finale of sex, and that sex finishes with ejaculation and, like, all of these, like, really linear, heteronormative views and stories that we've been kind of fed about what sex is. And so performance anxiety, really, for a lot, for most folk is actually, like, I don't align with this linear perception of what sex should be and what it should look like. And therefore, I am failing.

Freya Graf:

Yeah, Fucking, yes. All of that. And it's just like. It's a disaster. That's the last thing that we need. The. The furthest thing from a conducive, like, set and setting for pleasure and relaxation and intimacy. So, yeah, and I.

Freya Graf:

I guess, like, what you were saying about how we expect or perceive how it's meant to be, that can be so influenced by so many factors which we'll get into, and I suppose is also partially responsible for the different ways performance anxiety affects people with penises versus people with vulvas. Like, the different expectations on genders and the different roles we're sort of expected to play in this performance of sexual. Yeah, I'd love to, like, production.

Christine Raiff:

Yeah. And the irony is that the more that we focus on the performance or the perception of how to perform well, the less likely we are to be able to. To, like, actually have that performance because we're so stuck in our heads and we're not in our bodies and we're not focusing on the things that are sexy that are happening around us. And we're more likely to have. Yeah. Less or no erections. To either come too quickly or not be able to come. To not be able to have an orgasm.

Christine Raiff:

Pain with sex. Like, all of those things.

Freya Graf:

Yeah.

Christine Raiff:

And it's, like, unfair. The more you focus on something, the less likely it is to happen.

Freya Graf:

I know I talk about, like, especially with, like, female orgasm, it's kind of like this elusive wild creature, like a platypus, that, like, the more you're looking for it and trying to find it, the less likely it is. Yeah.

Christine Raiff:

Because I. I went to Tassie last year and I looked everywhere for a planet voice, and I did not find one.

Freya Graf:

But, yeah, like, even the. The theatrical metaphor, like, really tracks because we are also, like you said, with this linear kind of performative way of approaching sex. We're following scripts. We're literally following, like, a narrative that we've been passed down that we think is how sex is supposed to go. And there's different expectations and pressures on different genders based on these scripts and these, like, sexual narratives that we're trying to perform. And. Yeah, the more we're distracted by trying to perform these, well, the less we're actually enjoying being in the experience. So, yeah, I'd love to chat a little bit about, like, how can performance anxiety affect intimacy and connection and trust in a relationship negatively.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. Like, how is it working against us? We kind of touched on it, but I mean.

Christine Raiff:

Yeah, exactly. I think anything that takes. That puts us in our thinking brains, in our, like, minds rather than being in our bodies or being in the moment is, like, disconnect in a sense. Like, it is us, you know, and you people have probably experienced this. If they're enjoying something and then maybe they say something, you know, in a conversation, they're like, oh, I should have maybe not said that. And they get stuck in their head going, oh, my gosh, what are people thinking about what I just said? And should I say something different? Should I apologize? And then all of a sudden you've got no clue what people are talking about because you have completely zoned out. And you know, when we think about this from like intimacy and sex perspective, if we are in our heads worrying about performance or worrying about our body, worrying about the noises that we're making, then we are not there with our partners. And I think a lot of, especially when I work with couples, people describing like their partner's eyes, like almost glazing over, like checking out in that those moments of anxiety or stress or disconnection and like that really can negatively impact a sexual dynamic in a relationship generally.

Christine Raiff:

And people tend to like the other person in a relationship when the. When their partner has a performance anxiety of any kind, tend to personalize because sex is so vulnerable. And we, you know, especially those socialized as women, are taught to believe that it's about how sexy you can. Yeah. The performance of being sexy. And if our partner can't always struggling to get or maintain an erection, then what does that say about us? And I think that that just has this really vicious cycle of then feeding further anxiety because the person who's struggling with the performance concern is feeling really guilty that their partner is then taking it personally and they're trying to reassure them. But then the reassurance becomes like anxious, driven. So it's just recipe for disaster.

Freya Graf:

Yeah, yes, absolutely. And so on. That. That's one really common way that performance anxiety can show up for penis owners is like erectile issues, maybe challenges with either ejaculating too quickly or not being able to ejaculate. What are the ways and why does performance anxiety show up for penis?

Christine Raiff:

Yeah, yeah. So exactly what you've just said, like, I guess generally speaking, when people talk about performance anxiety, usually they're thinking about penis and usually they're thinking about erection. I mean, I say that as like, usually because I think as we've sort of even touched upon, like performance anxiety can really show up in any body in. In like a lot of different ways. But traditionally that's probably what we would kind of perceive as performance anxiety. And I think the difference between performance anxiety and erection or ED or erectile dysfunction, as much as I hate pathologizing language, is that performance anxiety really in as the way I see it is very psychological. It's a. It's situational psychological, it's emotional, it's relational, it's not physical.

Christine Raiff:

Whereas erectile dysfunction has this physical element. Well, I guess it is kind of. This is how I separate it at least. Anyways, like people who Are maybe experiencing erection issues that are related to a circulatory issue, a heart condition, you know, recovery from prostate cancer. The physical physiological reasons for erectile dysfunction are quite different to performance anxiety. But you probably experience this too with penis owners when they show up, when they've got erection concerns or erection difficulties is they almost always are. Like I went and got my testosterone checked and you know, I like my GP says that my testosterone levels are fine and therefore like what the going on basically. So there's like just this assumption that erection concerns are caused always by physical reason, which I think for the majority of cases not true.

Christine Raiff:

Yeah, I don't know. It's been your experience as well.

Freya Graf:

Yeah, yeah, totally. And then it's really interesting because like a lot of them reach for Viagra or cls or whatever. And like even sometimes when it's not a circulatory thing or you know, any physical reason, the placebo effect almost makes. Just takes that pressure off them and gives them like peace of mind. And then it does work. So it can be hard to tease apart like.

Christine Raiff:

Hey, I was going to say. Which is exactly, I guess like how you can distinguish between erection that's based on a physical cause versus difficulty with erection that's performance driven. Like if the placebo. You're right, like even having like the Viagra, the Cialis in your bag is enough to be able to get and maintain the erection, then you know that it's a performance anxiety rather than something that's actually physically happening in your body.

Freya Graf:

But then I think it can be tricky because sometimes if it is just a mental performance anxiety thing, the Viagra does work because it releases that pressure and anxiety and therefore people are like, oh, well, it must be, must have been a physical thing. And it can be tricky to like tease apart chicken or egg because there is. Yeah.

Christine Raiff:

Describe to clients, I guess like I am a lover of the nervous system as like an explanation for so many things. And with erection and performance anxiety, you're so right. It's like Viagra supports additional circulation to the penis which can like have both the placebo effect of okay, I can take this and I know that I'm going to be okay. And it also then has that physical like assurance there as well. But I like to describe and I think the big thing about Viagra which is my like bugbear when GPs just prescribe by because they don't want to talk about sex with their clients is that you still need to be aroused. And like if you are still feeling nervous, even if you take a Cialis or a Viagra, your nervous system is going to work against you because your fight, flight or sympathetic dominance, whatever language you'd like to use for it, diverts blood away from our core, which includes our genitals and our pelvis includes penis, includes vulva and labia if you're a vulva owner. And it, it diverts it to our arms and our legs so we can fight and run. And so even if we've taken Viagra, if we're shit scared that we're not going to be able to perform in the way that we want to, or we're anxious because the first time we're having sex with someone or we've never had sex before or whatever the story is, then the Viagra might not help in the way that we think it's going to help because our nervous system is working against it.

Freya Graf:

Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's not like a fix all or like a solution that just always comes through. It's like very much a helping hand to processes that are already going down in the body, like the arousal processes. But yeah, if we're feeling that heightened anxiety and we're in fight or flight, there's no way we're going to be able to get as aroused and have that, you know, circulation to the pelvis and the genitals. So it's really heartbreaking when, yeah, when it becomes this vicious cycle of like, you know, say premature ejaculation. I also don't love, you know, pathologizing it with these sort of terms, but that's kind of what everyone knows it as. So pe can become a vicious cycle when we're like so afraid of it happening that then we're not able to relax and therefore, you know. Yeah, this because ejaculation, you know, arousal is a function of like being able to be in the parasympathetic.

Freya Graf:

But then ejaculation is like a sympathetic response of like panic button. Eject literally.

Christine Raiff:

Eject literally.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. Oh God. Poor, poor people with penises. It's a lot of pressure. And so like what about people with. Actually just before we go on to like people with vulvas, what do you think about like. Because I'm hearing more and more from men that they are just taking like Viagra or Cialis pretty much every time as like a bit of a safety net. Yeah, yeah.

Freya Graf:

And then it's like kind of forming a bit of a dependence and if they don't have it, it's like, you know, panic stations and they don't have a lot of confidence or faith in their own body and themselves to be able to, you know, perform. So what are your thoughts on using these drugs? Like, is there a happy medium? Can they be a helpful tool as like a bit of a bridge if we're not using them every time? Like, what would you recommend? Hey, baby babes, sorry to interrupt. I just had to pop my head into the lounge here and mention another virtual lounge that I'd love you to get around. It's the Labia Lounge Facebook group that I've created for listeners of the potty to mingle in There you'll find extra bits and bobs, like freebies behind the scenes or discounts for offerings from guests who have been interviewed on the podcast. They'll also be hopefully inspiring, thought provoking conversations and support from a community of labial legends like yourself. My vision for this is that it becomes a. A really supportive, educational and hilarious resource for you to have more access to me and a safe space to ask questions you can't ask anywhere else. So head over to links in the show notes or look up the Labia Lounge group in Facebook and I'll see you in there.

Freya Graf:

And now back to the episode.

Christine Raiff:

So I think where they can be useful is if, yeah, if you're not using them every single time or potentially if you've just, you know, I guess this kind of speaks to when, for how long has the performance anxiety or the erection concern or the ejaculation concern been there? If it's been like your whole life and it's quite chronic, then actually I can see those people get more dependent on Viagra o Cialis. If it works because it feels like it's the only thing, like the saving grace. Whereas if I, if there's a like client or a person who has maybe experienced it a handful of times and they're going, I don't really know what's going on. Like, historically I haven't really had this as an issue and now I'm getting in my head about can I feel that it can be quite good in those really early stages to like catch really spiral into, you know, because I think as we sort of, we maybe touched on this. Yeah. A little bit before is like this cycle of the more that something happens, the more that we then worry about it happening the next time and the more that that anxiety just feeds into the different difficult, you know, the performance concern that we're having. So if it's like something that you can catch before it becomes this huge story of my life I can never get an erection and I'm doomed forever then. I think it can be really useful.

Christine Raiff:

But yeah, we, we don't want to be using it as like this is the solution. It's a bit of a band aid, it can act as a placebo, it can help in building confidence on the short term. But I guess we also want to be looking at what are the long term strategies, what are the actual like non medical supports, like the ways that I can actually build this confidence, learn more about my body, you know. Yeah. Get out of my head and get back into the pleasure in the moment focusing and I guess we'll talk about this in a little bit as well, you know, what can we actually do? What are the practical strategies? Yeah, so I think it's good a lot. It can be good alongside a therapeutic intervention. But if you're using it as like the sole source, then it's probably not actually resolving the issue which is maybe confidence thing or like, you know, poor sex ed thing or safety. Exactly.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Awesome. Yeah, I'm really excited to talk about some sort of some more in depth solutions that are getting to the underlying issue rather than, you know, as so often these pharmaceutical solutions are very band aid, but can be helpful in a pinch just to kind of like nip something in the bud and give you. Especially because some people with penises really when they're having sex with someone for the first few times, that's when the anxiety is at its highest. And then once they kind of get that out of the way, maybe using some Viagra, if they need that, you know, safety net, then their confidence and the emotional safety and everything kind of is fostered enough to then not need it.

Christine Raiff:

And you kind of raised that good point there around. Probably the most common presentation of performance anxiety is like those early stages of a relationship with a new person. And like I reckon most like clients with penises that I've met where we've talked about like performance driven stuff or we've talked about like sexual history. A lot of people experience that and like of course makes sense. We're nervous. Like we want to make a good impression, especially if we like someone. Like we're worried, you know, we're getting to know a new body. Like all of the things that come with like the newness of a relationship or newness of the sexual relationship, that that's a super, super common presentation.

Christine Raiff:

So yeah, if having the Cialis in your bag because you know that that's a pattern for you in the past can really give you that little confidence boost for those first couple of times.

Freya Graf:

Yeah.

Christine Raiff:

Great.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. Yeah, totally. Yeah. Also, just like, in case I forget later and I'm sure we'll talk about it, but just the whole like, you know, penis centric approach to sex, like, if we didn't have the penetrative sex as this kind of like, be all and end all in our, you know, really mainstream sexual narratives or scripts, there wouldn't be so much fucking pressure on the erection in the first place. And so there wouldn't be all the overthinking and the anxiety around erections and it probably wouldn't be a fucking issue. But we're just so obsessed with erections and needing them to have sex, so anyway.

Christine Raiff:

Which is ironic because then we could, we could honestly like silo into something completely different. But it's ironic because most vulva owners don't come from penetrative sex, so. Or not alone. So like, it's like, actually your penis doesn't really need to be doing anything in order to satisfy a partner with a vulva. And so the more that we can like recognize that your penis, it's not about your penis. Like we've been taught that it's penis centric, but actually like, no one gives a fuck about your penis. Really.

Freya Graf:

Yeah, yeah. More trouble than they're wear sometimes, honestly. Cool. So how, how does like, performance anxiety differ when it comes to vulva owners? Like, what kind of things do we see showing up in the bedroom?

Christine Raiff:

Yeah, so I guess to start in like a similar train of thought, like overthinking, being stuck in our head. So the same thing, the same experience of performance anxiety. I think how it shows up for those socialized as women around this overthinking is, can be less about, like, I mean, we don't need to have, get and maintain an erection in a sense, especially if you haven't experienced painful sex in the past. In a sense we can kind of like fake performance in that like as long as we're lubricated enough or we're using lubricant for the most part, our genitals like, are made to function kind of as they are. We don't need to. Like, it's not visually obvious if we're not super aroused. Not that that means that we shouldn't be, but like. So I think where the performance anxiety or the overthinking comes in often is around how we look because we've been hypersexualized and we've been told, like, this is the certain body type that's sexy how we sound.

Christine Raiff:

It's actually about how we're giving pleasure to a partner, especially if that partner has a penis. Because historically it's so penis centric. So like, are we pleasing our partner? Are we performing enough for our partner to be enjoying themselves? Are they turned on by me? You know, like a lot of that. That's the sort of overthinking body image stuff. Does my like fat roll look weird here? Are they staring at this weird dimple that I've got? Which the reality is. No, they're not. But all of that stuff that just feeds into us being stuck in our heads. And when we're stuck in our heads, we're not in our bodies.

Christine Raiff:

So then it actually can make it really hard for us to become aroused, to feel pleasure and orgasm pressure and difficulty with orgasm, which is something that so many vulva owners face because of poor shit sex education and poor awareness of our own bodies and partners. Poor awareness of our bodies.

Freya Graf:

Yeah.

Christine Raiff:

But yeah, so really like the overthinking piece, orgasm pressure, I think important to touch on pain with sex where if we're, if we're stuck in our heads, we're not aroused enough. If we haven't spent enough time with non penetrative stuff, then actually we are way more likely to experience pain with sex. And then. Yeah. Because we're so penetratively focused as it being the main event if we're experiencing pain with sex. And obviously that feeds into an anxiety about like I can't perform, you know, I can't have penetrative sex. Or it feels painful to have got to push through.

Freya Graf:

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So I've. I've got an episode about women who struggle to orgasm with a partner that I did with Melissa Vrang. That one's awesome. And sort of goes a bit deeper into like what you were just touching on. And also we'll talk more about painful sex. But for people who have like acute difficulties with this, whether it's vaginismus, vulvodynia, just really painful sex.

Freya Graf:

I've got a whole episode on that with who did I do that? Oh my God. Anyway, it's just type in vaginismus. You'll find it.

Christine Raiff:

Oops.

Freya Graf:

Can't remember my guess from that one off the top of my head. But yeah, it's. It's a really interesting thing when you kind of realize that. Yeah. Because of the way people with vulvas have been socialized to be very people pleasing and you know, to believe that our, our bodies are for the man and our pleasure is also to kind of stroke his ego or the partner's ego and make them feel good about their performance. So much of sex is just like not even about us at all. It's like the being in your head thing is like, what do I look like to them? Do I look sexy? Am I doing it right? Am I giving them pleasure? Like, I just constantly hear from women that I work with that you know, they don't like going on top, it doesn't feel good to them. And I'm like, cool.

Freya Graf:

So like, describe to me what you're actually doing. And they're basically trying to reenact like a porno where they're sort of bouncing up and down around there. There's no grinding, there's no clit stimulation. It's just like, I don't know, just boinging on a pole and trying to visually look a certain way for him. And so they feel self conscious and uncomfortable. They feel physically actually uncomfortable in their body. It's not really hitting any of their pleasure zones. There's no kind of like heart to heart contact or nipple stimulation or clit.

Freya Graf:

And I'm like, well that sounds shit. Like, of course that doesn't feel good. Why don't you try this or that or have you tried this or that? And they'll be like, oh no, I don't think that that feels good for him. He likes it when I do this. And basically, you know, the classic like friction based kind of jackhammer bone session. And I'm just like, well, why the fuck are we all just prioritizing the other person's pleasure and thinking that, you know, we have to earn our keep by performing, you know, something that's going to be pleasurable for the other person's body. And then the like orgasm pressure that is only relevant and impacting us because we think our orgasm is also for the other fucking person, not for us. Like, it's just wild.

Christine Raiff:

Yeah. The like, yeah, my when we talk about orgasm pressure and like orgasm difficult and like perform the performance anxiety of like, okay, I have to have an orgasm and like, so I have to be in the, you know, I've got to be experience this type of stimulation. It's got to be like this and I have to do it. And I'm like, say to my clients, I'm like, who for? Because that sounds like pretty shit to be going, I've got, I have to have an orgasm. I'm like, like, is it for you or is it for your partner? And yeah, especially in heterodynamics it's almost like the orgasm, the awareness of the orgasm gap and everything is so, so amazing. Like let's focus on orgasms for anyone who wants to have orgasms, but let's make it about the person who's having the orgasm, not about, yeah like stroking our partner's ego and like where a hetero man has gone. Okay, now so I've got to focus on her orgasm. So if she doesn't orgasm then there's something wrong with me.

Christine Raiff:

And then that just, just is icky pressure. And as we know, the more pressure and the more we focus on something, the less likely it is to happen.

Freya Graf:

Yeah, 100%. It's just fascinating to me how like I guess like societal and cultural messages around like masculinity and femininity and gender roles and things like really shape the way that we show up in the bedroom and the way that we experience performance anxiety. Like, like we're all overthinking the fuck out of it and it's taking us out of our kind of parasympathetic nervous system and removing the ability to be present and surrender and really connect deeply. But it's kind of coming from like slightly different like gender narratives and stuff. But we're all a fucking victim to the patriarchy.

Christine Raiff:

Literally. And I think like literally this week, having a conversation with a client about, as you probably hear this heaps self diagnosed premature ejaculation. And then like, okay, well let's like, you know, explore this a little bit further. What's happening or even like self diagnose, like I'm an orgasmic, I can't have an orgasm even though maybe they can do it on their own but not with a partner. And then when we actually like dive into it, it's like you actually don't fit the criteria for premature ejaculation because that's less than one minute. You are taking seven, eight minutes on average, whatever. You actually fall very well within the aver and you're almost kind of bordering on delayed ejaculation in terms of the like, if we're looking at this from a pathologizing diagnostic criteria, but because porn shows people having sex for 45 minutes, you think that that's how long you have to be lasting. And so like yeah, so much of these performance anxieties are based off of bullshit, unrealistic, you know, like that in porn that a man thrusts three times and a woman has a screaming orgasm from zero clitoral stim and zero warm up.

Christine Raiff:

Like, and then people going Oh, I can't have an orgasm Slang wrong with my body. No, hun, you just didn't get sex ed.

Freya Graf:

No. Porn has so much to answer for. Like in just. Yeah. On. For all genders creating just such unrealistic standards and just fueling anxiety. Like. Yeah.

Freya Graf:

Oh my God. It's a bit of a show.

Christine Raiff:

What the prevalence of performance of like performance anxiety in any way that we've talked about it. Presenting. I wonder what the prevalence of it would be if when we got or received sex education, it was like legit.

Freya Graf:

Yeah.

Christine Raiff:

Like just real life people having sex and taking 20, 20 minutes on foreplay. Non foreplay, non penetrative activities focusing on clitoral stimulation, supporting orgasm without pressure. Erection comes and goes. Penetration is maybe part of it, but doesn't have to be. And isn't the main event. Like, if we watched porn that was like that, would we even, like, would it be a performance even? Or would that just be. Oh, this is just bodies acting the way bodies act and doing what they do.

Freya Graf:

Literally, like, like that is a crazy thought experiment. And like, if we were taught to communicate and we had that modeled to us, like how people can communicate to navigate intimate situations and foster more connection and safety and like, you know, emotional intimacy, like. Yeah, I think things would be completely different. The way everyone approached sex would be. Yeah. So much more organic and authentic.

Christine Raiff:

We probably wouldn't have jobs, to be fair.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. We'd all be having great sex.

Christine Raiff:

We'll be having sex. Sex therapy wouldn't be an occupation. It wouldn't need to be. So I just go, oh, my, my erection came and went that time. And that makes sense because I was thinking about my work colleague who's very unsexy and who's really pissed me off this week. Yeah. And.

Freya Graf:

Oh God, I just can't. Yeah, it's. It's a whole, it's a whole other world that it could be. And like I've, you know, dream into this and vision into this a lot just because of my line of work. And the goal is always to put myself out of work because people are having that kind of sex and they do know the possibilities of, you know, how things could be if, if they had that approach. But long way to go. I don't think I'm gonna be out of work anytime soon.

Christine Raiff:

No. And I, I feel like, like the pages that I follow on Instagram, like all like, super sex positive, super, like educational, whatever, even every five minutes. But I think things are changing. And then I meet with clients and then I go in community and I speak to friends and I'm like, oh, actually, like, no, no, we're in a bubble, babe. Maybe only, only other sex therapists and other pelvic physios and other like sex educators that are like, we're so sexually liberated and like we understand sex ed and everybody else is just still learning about sex the way that we Learned about it 25 years ago.

Freya Graf:

I know, it's. It's so easy to feel like things are. And they are. Like they are. Things are progressing. Like even just having all this affirmative consent, you know, legislation and funding and. But yeah, we are very much in this little like minority kind of progressive bubble and it is a horror show out there. Like I've started working, running workshops in schools for teenage boys and it is dire.

Freya Graf:

It's dire. I mean, it's definitely on the up in some ways. But then, yeah, oh my God, the manosphere. Anyway, that's a whole other topic. But there's shit going down and it's happening. The Internet is meaning that like those misogynistic kind of messaging messages and all of the narratives around masculinity are being disseminated at such a fast rate to like millions of like impressionable young teenage boys and like young men. A lot faster than our, you know, constantly shadow banned, educational, empowering Instagram accounts can compete with. So it is, yeah, it is a bit scary because it almost feels like in some ways we're going backwards.

Christine Raiff:

Yeah, totally. Especially when it comes to the stories around masculinity and. Yeah, yeah, we are 100% going backwards. It's worse now than it was when I was a teenager.

Freya Graf:

Oh my God. Yeah. Well, on that topic, we've got the segment get pregnant and die.

Christine Raiff:

Don't have sex, cuz you will get pregnant and die. Don't have sex.

Freya Graf:

The missionary position.

Christine Raiff:

Don't have, don't have sex standing up. Just don't do it, promise.

Freya Graf:

Do you have an anecdote about your sex ed?

Christine Raiff:

Yeah, so. Oh, my sex ed was shit. Which is probably aligned with most other people. I went to a like private Christian school, so it was kind of non existent. It was like condoms on test tubes was like my foray into like sexual health and like how to not get pregnant, how to not get STIs, that you will die of HIV, like all of that sort of stuff. But I do like, and maybe this is less sex ed related but more about like just the, the rhetoric of sex and pleasure for like girls of all the owners in my school was that there was Someone the boys used to always talk about masturbation and like, they'd talk about like, porn and whatever, and that was all fine. And a girl in my class, like, said that she had masturbated and she got relentlessly bullied for like, if what feel probably wasn't years, but it felt like that. And then what it did.

Christine Raiff:

It's interesting now. Like, I still have some really good friends from school and at the time, everyone's like, oh, like, we don't do that, you know, because this person was just being bullied so much. And then in hindsight, we were like, well, obviously we were all doing it because it's a normal part of sexual exploration for a teenager. But we just were so shamed into thinking that it was something that we shouldn't be doing. And that was just the messaging. And then like, yeah, we didn't receive anything different in sex ed. It was just very like, fear mongering, sti focused and then people getting bullied for going, hey, I like pleasure.

Freya Graf:

Yeah, yeah, totally. It's like, it's encouraged for boys and it's like actively shamed and like ridiculed for girls, which is. Yeah, no wonder, like, none of my friends talked about that. And God, not like, I have no idea if. If people were or weren't. Like, we just didn't. We didn't talk about it.

Christine Raiff:

Yeah, yeah.

Freya Graf:

Which is crazy because girls talk about everything.

Christine Raiff:

I know. I even find. So now that I am a sex therapist, like, it kind of gave permission for like every person that I've ever known, whether I want, I'm consenting to it or not, to tell me about their sex lives and to ask them me questions about my sex life or like, yeah, just, you know, client sex lives and all that sort of stuff. So it like, was beautiful because it gave a lot of permission for people to actually start talking about it. In my friendship groups.

Freya Graf:

Yeah.

Christine Raiff:

However, when I work with clients, I still, again, this is my bubble. Right. Like, because it's something that I talk about a lot, it feels like something that people are talking about. But so many men as well, of people of all genders or all sexualities still have, like, limited social circles where they feel really open to talk about things. And I guess to kind of loop this back even to performance is like, often they're not talking about the anxieties, they're not talking about the pain with sex, they're not talking about the erection issues. They're talking about, you know, like the winds and they're like, bigging up Themselves, or they're, like, sharing the difficult experiences and in turn feeding into other people's performance anxiety because they're like, well, how come everyone else is having all this amazing sex and I can't maintain an erection because I'm so fearful, or I'm having pain and I can't have penetration? And everybody else seems to just be having sex, you know, all over the place and whenever they want to and off a whim.

Freya Graf:

God, I hear that all the time. And it's so frustrating and also understandable and fascinating that, like, the. The desire to belong and to fit in and to be normal is so strong that, like, even people that don't in, you know, the outdated ideas of masculinity or the narratives, like, sexually about how they're supposed to perform, even if they don't believe in that themselves, and they aren't, like, living up to those standards themselves, they police it in others by, like, the jokes that they make and the comments that they make and the things that they do choose to share over, you know, the more vulnerable and realistic things that they don't choose to share. And so it's just, like, perpetuating this situation. And it's. The whole fucking reason that I have this podcast is to normalize, talking about it, the good and the bad and the challenging and, you know, but it is crazy, like, how many clients I'll. I'll kind of have in my office, and they don't have a single friend or sister or anyone that they can talk about sex stuff with. And I'm just heartbroken by that.

Freya Graf:

And I often give people homework, you know, within reason. If. If I feel like they probably. If I gauge that their friendship circles can handle it, you know, to be that trailblazer and to be the person that gives the rest of the group permission by broaching that topic and just planting some seeds and just, like, opening up that door so that everyone else kind of goes, oh, is that on the table? Are we allowed to talk about that? Well, she's talking. Oh, okay. Because people love talking about sex when they've got permission. Like, I get the exact same thing. People just come up to me and tell me their whole sexual history.

Christine Raiff:

I'm like, you need more friends that you can talk about this with, like, asking for advice at the bar. I'm like, I've had drinks, so, like, I don't know how I'm gonna be able to provide you with. Really? Enough duty. Yeah. Literally book an appointment. Yeah.

Freya Graf:

So how do you say, like. I mean, we've kind of already spoken about this, but in case you have anything more to add, differences in like queer relationships versus hetero ones in terms of navigating performance anxiety, like, do you differences?

Christine Raiff:

Like yeah, shoot, yeah, yeah. So yeah, we've spoken quite a lot probably around like the hetero experience and how these stories about sex and the stories about, yeah, like how who we. How we should perform in sex, how that shows up as performance anxiety. I think within queer communities it can be really similar, but maybe not such like, like stark distinctions between like how a woman should perform and how. And you know, I guess in queer relationships where there's no penis, we're not penis centric. And actually in those dynamics, not to say that performance anxiety shows up less, but because they're not, they're having sex in a way that's not this linear, socially constructed view of what the. The performance is, there's actually more room to be creative because it doesn't end with penis in vagina, ejaculation and orgasm. So they get to play around more with what it actually looks like and ending when they choose to end it.

Christine Raiff:

Especially if we're talking about two Volvo owners where they can be multi orgasmic, you know, without having to kind of take long breaks or anything like that in the gay community. So penis on penis, that there is a lot of performance anxiety around erections because it is so penis centric again. Yeah. So yeah, it shows up. It shows up differently, but probably not less or more necessarily. But I guess we have these stories, you know, you then think about what are the stories in the gay community about sex? And it is very much about like body, you know, body image stuff. It's very much about penis size, tops, bottoms, erections like lasting a long period of time, being able to have sex multiple times. You know, we put in things like Chemsex or like sex on drugs or multiple partners.

Christine Raiff:

So like, it's just different stories that then can perpetuate performance anxieties in different ways.

Freya Graf:

Which is such a shame because, you know, you'd think getting two people with similar genitals in the same room, they would understand from like an embodied perspective what the other person might be going if they are having a struggle with their erection or whatever. You'd think there'd be more kind of leeway and compassion and understanding. But it's almost like the pressures on people with penises to perform masculinity in a certain way and perform sexually are just compounded because then they're doubly under pressure and trying to Prove. Yeah, it's crazy. Yeah, it's just.

Christine Raiff:

And I guess we sort of talk about this, like, you know, I was saying before about how if, you know, a partner that someone we're having sex with is experiencing a performance concern that we. It's like in our nature to kind of like personalize things. So I think like, there are. That doesn't always happen. There are definitely people that are like, totally understand that you feel anxious, like, no stress, like, you know, that are really can be really validating and supportive of a partner who's experiencing a performance concern. And obviously that happens amongst all communities. Happens in queer communities and straight communities. But it's just less, I guess in my experience, in what I've seen, it happens less because we just don't know.

Christine Raiff:

Like the person who's the partner to a performance concerned person doesn't know that the nervous system works against us and our blood is rushing away from our genitals and so they just think, oh, I'm not sexy enough or yeah, this person is not turned on and off by me, or my cock's not big enough or, you know, they build a story that's personal, but that doesn't exist in every situation. And I guess, like, the more that we know about why performance anxiety shows up and that it almost never is to do with the other person, then. And really there's a lot that we can do to support a person with performance anxiety in our response. Response to something that. That happens in a sexual experience, then, you know, the more that we can, I guess, the less performance anxiety that exists. Yeah.

Freya Graf:

100.

Christine Raiff:

There are supportive people out there. But then, yeah, on the flip side, there's the people perpetuating these scripts because it's all we know.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. Excuse this quick interruption. I'm shamelessly seeking reviews and five star ratings for the potty because as I'm sure you've noticed by now, it's pretty fab. And the more people who get to hear it, the more people. People I can help with it. Reviews and ratings actually do make a big difference to this little independent podcaster. And it's really easy to just quickly show your support by taking that simple act of either leaving five stars for the show on Spotify, or even better, writing a written review and leaving five stars over on Apple Podcasts. Or if you're a real overachiever, you can do them both.

Christine Raiff:

Both.

Freya Graf:

That would be mad. If you're writing a review though, just be sure to use G rated words because despite the fact that this is a podcast, about sexuality. Words like sex can be censored and your review won't make it through the gates. Lame. Anyway, I would personally recommend doing that right now while you remember, just to get on top of it and let me know you're with me on this journey. Thanks, gang. Enjoy the rest of the epi. And I guess people's existing insecurities, based on what we're told about what's expected of us in sex and stuff, then can just fully rear their heads.

Freya Graf:

And that's why we just immediately make it personal. But I think it's like you said, based on a lack of education. Because if we understood how complex and layered arousal processes are, it wouldn't, you know, like, we're simplifying things. We're literally like one plus one equals two. You're not getting erection, so that must mean you're not attracted to me or I'm failing in some way, or you're fucking useless in some way and you're not a real man or whatever. Like, overly simplified assumptions people are making. It's like just because of ignorance and because we're sold really simplified, really misleading kind of truths about sex. And.

Freya Graf:

Yeah, so on that I'd love to get into, like, the nervous system's role. Like, we've touched on, you know, how that tends to divert blood flow and things like that. And a lot of people can kind of understand that in relation to erections. But, you know, something that I teach a lot of my vulva owning clients is like, you know, we also need a lot of engorgement and blood flow in the pelvis to actually fill our erectile tissue issue with blood and therefore allow us access to, you know, internal orgasms and pleasure and stuff. So if we're, if we're, you know, the aim is to help people understand that any type of, you know, erectile challenges or orgasm challenges in the bedroom is not about them, is not about attractiveness, is not about desirability or worth or performance. Like, what do you want people to know about what their nervous system is doing and the role that that plays in arousal?

Christine Raiff:

So there's two, like, main things, right? And the first thing we sort of spoke about, which is that, like, from a physiological perspective, when we're in a sympathetic dominance, our fight flight, like, our bodies, human bodies are made to fight or run. That's why we call it the fight flight. So we are then having that blood that's circulating away from the genitals. Like, yeah, what we've spoken about, what you just described. So it's working against every person's. Yeah, because we need blood in our clitoris in order to experience pleasure and sensation. And we want flow, we need blood flow into our whole genital region. And we also need for our pelvis and our pelvic floor to be, like, relaxed enough that it can actually clench and release in order to have the orgasm.

Christine Raiff:

So, yeah, the first element, the blood flow stuff. But secondly, when you. When we're in sympathetic dominance, we tend to tense our jaw and our pelvic floor because we're, like, ready to fight or to run away. And we need some, like, tension in our body. And so when we're tensing, we're further restricting blood flow. We're restricting our capacity to, like, have potentially ejaculatory control or to hold erection or to allow blood to continuously be flowing into our. Into a penis to be able to maintain that erection. And yeah, for vulva owners, shows up in the same way.

Christine Raiff:

If we're really tense in our pelvic floor, then there's really little blood flow that's getting through and we need that blood flow to support more pleasure, to support, support more lubrication.

Freya Graf:

Right.

Christine Raiff:

We also need lubrication to be flowing into there. And we also need relaxation in order to clench and release, to have an orgasm. So if we are experiencing sympathetic dominance during a sexual, sexual experience, like, literally everything is working against us in terms of what we would class as like, the performative elements of sex. So, yeah, arousal, pleasure, orgasm, ejaculation, erection.

Freya Graf:

Yeah, yeah. Nervous system's a big deal. It's like a pretty, pretty star player in the kind of cascade that needs to happen in the body to. To be aroused and then to feel pleasure, I guess.

Christine Raiff:

Actually you're saying that. I was thinking about the third element, which is when we're not present in the moment, we're not actually focusing on things that are sexually relevant and sexually arousing. We're thinking, oh, my goodness, what's happening to my erection? I'm losing it. Am I going to be able to get it back? Those thoughts are not sexy. They are not helping you maintain, like, brain arousal. And our brain being our biggest sex organ, like, if we're not, not present going, wow, my partner looks so sexy when they do that. They sound amazing. I love watching them sweat.

Christine Raiff:

Like, if they're not actually focusing on the things that are sexy, then they are just going to be losing arousal.

Freya Graf:

Yeah, 100%. And yeah, that sort of busy mind, that overactive mind, distractible mind, can be a huge killer for arousal. Like if we're not in our bodies and you know, focused and present, then arousal isn't going to be generating and building. And so it's quite tricky sometimes for people it can actually work in your favor if you learn how to utilize it. But neurodivergent people, people with adhd, it can be really fucking tricky to focus and be present and relaxed enough to get to that heightened state of arousal. And I've done episodes on that as well if people are interested. But, but I'm curious to talk about, since I was sort of almost about to go into it anyway, in terms of strategies, what are some kind of practical approaches and tips that you could give people to just remedy some of this pressure and performance anxiety?

Christine Raiff:

So I suppose the main thing which we've kind of been talking about all throughout is, is like unlearn, like just thinking, well, what are the messages that I received about sex? What is it that I believe is like the, the perfect sexual performance? And then just like burning that in the bin and actually looking at like how do bodies actually function and how do they operate and, and maybe looking at the resource like research and the resources on how do I, like what actually is an arousal process. We know for Volvo owners It can take 17 minutes to be ready for penetration minimum. I reckon we know that, yeah, less than 20% of vulva owners can orgasm from penetration alone without external stimulation as well. So like the learning these new messages that actually tells us, oh, I'm not going to have a screaming orgasm from three thrusts of a penis. And that's actually not my body not working properly. That's my body operating exactly as it should from a physiological perspective. And same with those who have penises is going, okay, well I need to feel aroused in my brain. I need to be present in the moment and I need to have like non clenched pelvic floor to be able to be allowing that blood to flow into the area.

Christine Raiff:

And I need to have sexually relevant, relevant stimuli in my environment to be able to be maintaining that arousal and maintaining that erection. And that's quite different to I guess like the socially constructed narrative of, you know, what we've been taught about sex. So basically Chuck, what we've learned about sex out the window. Step one thing. Yeah, step one, just like burn everything you've ever learned about sex and replace it with yeah like things that are actual research based, biologically driven, you know, needs for sex. I guess then like besides, besides that huge element of it, I like to kind of categorize strategies from like outside, outside of a sexual experience. What can we do? So like, what can we do day to day? So I guess the education piece is one of them. And then also like within the sexual, sexual experience.

Christine Raiff:

What can we do? So I guess maybe starting like outside of the sexual experience. Yeah, education piece. Huge. Learning about your nervous system and learning how it shows up, what it feels like to be in sympathetic dominance for yourself, what it feels like when you're starting to notice that stress, what happens in your body? And actually then what tools do you have in your toolkit? And this is like non sexual. What tools do you have in your toolkit when you're feeling stressed? Generally, you know, like taking deep breaths, extending your exhale, focusing on what's in my environment, what am I seeing coming back into the present moment, using our senses, kind of all of the like nervous system 101 self soothing 101 stuff. Because the more that we are aware of how our nervous system works, works, what it feels like for us, then the more awareness we have as to whether or not we're experiencing that anxiety. And then, you know, I always describe it to my clients as like, let's set ourselves up for success, for a sexual experience. So if we're going on a date, first date with someone and we're feeling anxious, as in the drive to the date, then like, what do we need to do in those moments to support ourselves in feeling more relaxed and regulated? And if we, we are still feeling nervous when we're on the date, it's like, is that the right time to be going home with that person and having sex with them? Or do we actually, are we actually better off going, let's do some more like, you know, let's go on a couple more dates.

Christine Raiff:

Let's practice some more nervous system regulation outside of sex. And let's actually not initiate something sexual until I'm not feeling like I'm 10 out of 10. Anxious, distressed. Because what we just spoke about, like nervous system wise, it's your body's working against you when you're trying to have a sexual performance. If you're already stressed.

Freya Graf:

Yeah, big time, Big time. And then sex can be painful if you're stressed and all your muscles are contracted and your body's closed off.

Christine Raiff:

Yeah, yeah. And you're struggling. Like it's really hard to be like our bodies are not supposed to be horny and aroused when we're in threat. Yeah. Like your body's operating as it should. You don't want to have a rock hard penis when you're running From a tiger. Like, you just don't.

Freya Graf:

No. And we don't want to like accidentally wire ourselves or condition. Condition ourselves to respond to heightened anxiety because, yeah, that's just not how we're kind of evolutionarily wired. Like, if you're under threat and you're feeling that heightened state of anxiety and activation in your nervous system, the last priority for survival is to go and, and procreate. Like, it's just not natural to want those two things at the same time.

Christine Raiff:

So yeah, so like, like, yeah, your body is actually doing what it should be doing. It is performing as it should be. If you don't have an erection, then you're stressed. Like that's actually, that is I guess, the performance we should be focusing on.

Freya Graf:

Right.

Christine Raiff:

I don't know if you've heard like probably in your studies, in everyone's studies. I think in sex therapy, like we learn about sensate focus. So like removing, going back to basics and starting with kind of like external stuff and then slowly great toward internal, like penetrative sex. But I use Barry McCarthy's five gears of touch framework. I feel like, especially when working with performance anxieties or pain with sex, really anything, I kind of pull this out. My bag of tricks basically looks at the five gears of touch being like first gear is affection, non sexually relevant. Kissing, holding hands. Hands, but like kissing, not making out, like pecks on the cheek, whatever.

Christine Raiff:

Something that's not turning our like desire arousal systems on. It's just like a, oh, this is a nice like touch gear. Two essential. So like making out maybe more like touch of erogenous zones. So like this is like the first gear where our body's going like, oh, something sexually relevant is happening. Or something like something that's maybe turning and sparking my interest sexually is. Is happening, but it's nothing to do with genitals. Third gear is playful.

Christine Raiff:

So like maybe incorporate some like dry humping or like some over the clothes touching, maybe some nipple stimulation. Still non, like non direct contact on genitals. But it is definitely like heating up and it's going like, this is pretty sexual now, right? But we're not actually touching genitals fully yet. Then the fourth gear is erotic touch. So that, that's non penetrative genital touch. So oral sex hands could also still be dry humping, I guess, things like that. And then fifth gear is penetrative touch. And so I love this framework because especially with anxiety, performance anxiety, because I can go where, which gear does anxiety show up? And for some People, it shows up at like gear one because it's like, well I was thinking about the fact that maybe we might have sex later.

Christine Raiff:

And so I'm already feeling anxious at time the that point. For some people, the anxiety doesn't show up till gear five. So like they might be able to. And if we talk about this like a penis owner get maintain erection all the way through gears 1, 2, 3, 4 might be feeling super turned on, really ready, like you know, erect, et cetera. And if they don't have penetrative sex, maybe they get maintain the erection, they can ejaculate. You know, they have, they perform in the way that they want to. But then as soon as it comes to like, okay, penetration is going to happen now then focuses on okay, penis must remain hard, you know, or I must have orgasm, I must do whatever else. And then that's where the anxiety shows up.

Christine Raiff:

So wherever on the gear scale it shows up, I like to start there and get people to think about, okay, well how can I regulate my nervous system at gear two if that's where it shows up for me at gear four if that's where it shows up for me, like wherever it is, then, you know, the things that we just sort of talked about around the nervous system, how can I set myself up, up for success, to move to the next gear, so to speak. And I talk about this in relation to painful sex. It's really useful because especially like year five for a lot of people, that's where the pain is. So that's where the anxiety, anxiety maybe starts at gear two because it's like, oh, we're starting to make out with each other. So maybe sex is on the cards and maybe I'm going to have penetrative sex. So what can we do at gear two to support ourselves to not be feeling super anxious? Maybe we say, hey, I'm really feeling like I want to continue, but penetrative sex is off the table tonight. Just because I'm noticing that I'm feeling a bit stressed about it. Cool.

Christine Raiff:

Amazing. Then we can feel relaxed, be parasympathetic and we can actually maybe go to gear four and have an amazing sexual experience without that performance pressure on penetration. And same with penis owners, right? Like maybe if penetration is where the anxiety is, we just explore non penetrative sex for a while.

Freya Graf:

Yeah.

Christine Raiff:

Get really comfortable being in that space.

Freya Graf:

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I love that. And I feel like a really simple on the sort of nervous system stuff at any point, at any stage of touch, a little tip or trick I'll give people is very much just like around the sensory stuff, like just going in and focusing on slowing your breath and paying attention to that or focusing on the sensation of the touch in a specific area on your skin. And if you zone in on something like that acutely, whether it's your breath, whether you're just slowing down and controlling your breath, or you're paying attention to a sensation that sends the brain, the nervous system, a message of safety. Because if you were actually under threat and you were having to run for your life or fight or fly, you wouldn't be paying attention to your fucking breath. You wouldn't be slowing it down. You wouldn't be paying attention to that soft touch on your skin. And so it's almost like a bit of a hat that goes, hey, brain, by the way, hey, look over here.

Freya Graf:

We're sweet, we're safe. Because I'm breathing slowly or I'm. I'm like, able to feel subtle sensations. Therefore, it's. It's like almost like convincing your nervous system, like, that it can relax. Yeah.

Christine Raiff:

So all of that I have, like, this sheet, like, nervous system hacks. And it's literally like. Yeah, it's that. It's like if we are extending our exhale and we're slowing our breath. Breath, it sends the message to our brain. We can't possibly be in, like, life or death threat or danger because we would not be able to have slow breath. We would not be able to relax our muscles. We would not be able to.

Christine Raiff:

Yeah. Hone in on, wow, that flower in the corner of the room looks really beautiful. We would be like tunnel vision to the threats and activating everything to get away from that threat or to. To kill the threat.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. And I think, like, so much of the tools around this, around nervous system regulation might seem really, like, simple or almost like too simple to be effective or do much. And people can be skeptical. I was pretty skeptical. But when you explain the reasoning, like the rationale around why it can be effective, it's like, oh, that actually makes heaps of sense. And, you know, understanding how the nervous system works is so powerful in being able to hack, you know, your own own systems of arousal and use it to your advantage. And like, most of the homework that I'll give people, at least to begin with, might seem like it's not even related to sex. And I explain, like, look, this is foundational stuff.

Freya Graf:

It absolutely will influence your experience in the bedroom. But you might feel a bit impatient or bored because everyone just wants, like, the, The Gung ho mandam thingy.

Christine Raiff:

Well, they want magic. Yeah.

Freya Graf:

And I'm like, no, we're going to start real slow and we're going to do some mindfulness stuff and some nervous system stuff. And you know, bit by bit you'll start to like be able to rewire your system to drop into those spaces more easily. And then you're going to be able to come because you know, you're. You've practiced the skill of like self regulation and you'll have an understanding of your nervous system and how it works. So yeah, love that. There's the outside of the bedroom strategies that you have. What about like in the moment strategies for performance anxiety? If like we're already in like a bit of a heightened state and we're in bed with someone.

Christine Raiff:

Yeah. So basically like the same tool that you just described, like. But maybe outside of. Before we get into this, during sexual experience, we would. I get clients to identify like, what are their, their biggest senses of like sexual arousal and sexual interest. So like physical touch, is it like the visual, like looking at a partner's body or like. Or is it listening to the sounds that are being made, like the huffing and puffing and the moaning and this sort of thing. And so getting them to identify one or two senses that for them are like their peak turn on senses.

Christine Raiff:

Because then when we're in the section sexual experience and we start to notice that we're like getting stuck in our head or we're starting to feel anxious, we can reorient to one or both of those senses, like exactly what you just said. So and we're really. Then like, I guess what I say to people is like, narrate your own, like become the narrator of your own like erotic experience. Because we cannot be thinking two things at once. So if we go can switch, switch from thinking, oh my goodness, what's happening to my erection? Am I losing it? Or like, am I gonna come? It's taking forever. They must be so bored down there. Like all of these really unsexy thoughts. If we then can reorient and ground into one of our senses of arousal or two of them.

Christine Raiff:

And we're narrating that. Like the way that they're making those noises feels sounds so sexy and like, oh my goodness, the way they're touching, like my left, you know, the left part of my clitoris feels so soft and like that feels really amazing. And they look so sexy the way they're moving when they're doing this. Like whatever it is, we're just Narrating what's actually happening. You can do it out loud, but probably just in your head, it's fine. You can feed this into dirty talk. Like, you know, hot how you're doing this, like, that feels so amazing. I mean, we can say these things out loud, but when I say narrate, I mean even just in our own heads because we can't be thinking, what's happening to my erection and my partner's tits look so amazing right now.

Christine Raiff:

And so if we just continue to narrate and orient toward and focus on thinking about the things that are happening, that are sexy, that are actually turning us on, then we're going to support our arousal system.

Freya Graf:

Yeah, I love that. And it's. Yeah, that, that's such a simple piece of advice that I find myself giving a lot. And also with that, like, like how can you follow your pleasure, follow your arousal, follow what's enjoyable in that moment and focus on that to divert your attention away from that kind of spectatoring, narrating from the inner critic, which is complete fucking boner killer and actually reorient, like you said, to the pleasant or the pleasurable or the arousing or just literally the present moment, even, even if it's neutral, you can expand on any little subtle thing if you're able to navigate your attention and focus at will. And that's where like these mindfulness practices and regulation practices come in outside of the bedroom. Because it's a skill. And if we're practicing them a lot, then when we're in a more high pressure situation in the bedroom, we'll be able to just go, hang on. I've done this a million times before.

Freya Graf:

I actually do know how to just, just wrangle my attention and my busy mind and my inner critic and just be like, hey, we're looking at this now, we're focusing on this now. And just, yeah, like, basically like talk yourself into being really present and enjoying the things that you're enjoying in the moment to expand on that. And then follow what feels good. Like, it's not. It doesn't, you know, if you're following what feels good, often that, that pleasure that you're experiencing and that arousal will also be felt and amplified by your partner. If you're both sort of following pleasure, unless you've got very, very jarringly different ideas of what pleasure would be in that exact moment, which can happen, it's generally just a good rule of thumb. Follow the pleasure and the connection.

Christine Raiff:

Yeah. And as you bring you away from the goal orientation or the performance concern. So am I losing my erection is like a future concern or am I going to come as a future concern and it's bringing it back into, yeah, what am I feeling and experiencing right now? And then I guess like a question if, then if it's neutral, what can make this feel even better for me right now? Not what could make me come or what can keep me hard, but like what could actually feel even better? What could be even more sexy for me right now?

Freya Graf:

Yeah. Fuck yeah. Yeah. Removing any expectations of outcome or goal and just focusing on, on the present moment and what would make it even better and just taking it moment by moment so that we're not so focused on where we're trying to get to, to the detriment of the present moment and being able to enjoy it. Cool. So last question and then I want to do the segment tmi. Where do you see communication breakdowns typically happening around performance anxiety? And how can couples talk about it in a healthier way or even on a one night stand? Because often this kind of thing happens in a casual setting because we don't have the intimacy and the rapport and the trust and the safety built. How can we be communicating about this so that even if, you know, our bodies don't, quote unquote, perform on cue, how we would hope it doesn't feel shattering and self esteem defeating and embarrassing or awkward, but actually we still feel like it was a positive experience.

Freya Graf:

Hey, me again. If you'd like to support the potty and you've already given it five stars on whatever platform you're listening on, I want to mention that you can buy some really dope merch from the website and get yourself a labia lounge tote tea togs. Yep, you heard that right. I even have labia lounge bathers or a cute fanny pack if that'd blow your hair back. So if, if fashion isn't your passion though, you can donate to my Buy me a Coffee donation page, which is actually called Buy me a Soy Chai latte. Cause I'll be the first to admit I'm a bit of a Melbourne cafe tosser like that. And yes, that is my coffee order. You can do a once off donation or an ongoing membership and sponsor me for as little as three fat ones a month.

Freya Graf:

And I also offer one on one coaching and online courses that'll help you level up your sex life and relationship with yourself and others in a really big way. So every bit helps because it ain't cheap to put out a sweet podcast into the world every week out of my own pocket. So I will be undyingly grateful if you support me and my biz financially in any of these ways. And if you like, I'll even give you a mental BJ with my mind from the lounge itself. Saucy. And then I'll pop the links in the show notes. Thank you later.

Christine Raiff:

Yeah. So firstly, I guess we kind of have to put our egos to the side in a sense of like. And this can be, I would say this is maybe more so for like if you're in a sexual relationship or a relationship that you maybe know this person and you feel like you can be a little bit more vulnerable with them potentially than a one night stand. Not that we can't be vulnerable on one one night stands, but maybe we don't have as much willingness for it is like the more that we can be open about the things that we are concerned about, the more that we can be supported by a partner. And rather than just going, okay, well they're just going to expect me to perform, like, we make these assumptions that our partner is expecting these certain things of us which are really unlikely to be what they actually expect. But because we're putting, we're just putting that pressure on ourselves, we're putting that performance pressure on ourselves because of some created assumption about what our partner might think or what they might want and how they might experience pleasure. So just being open about like, you know, whether it's even your experience or it's flipping the script and actually focusing on like what feels good for you, like I really want to focus on you. I would love to worship you.

Christine Raiff:

Tell me what you'd like, show me what you like. Because if we can focus on like, you know, if we're getting caught in our own performance pressures and we have assumptions, we're making assumptions about what our partner wants pleasure wise without actually asking the questions to them, then we're just like setting ourselves up for failure. Whereas if we can drop the assumptions and go, why don't I just check in with my partner and I can actually ask questions that are about them and I can focus on their pleasure without putting too much pressure on it. And it kind of takes pressure away from me and my penis having to work or my vulva having to be super wet immediately. And I think even communicating, I guess let's flip to if we're with someone for the first time or if it's maybe a one night stand is we don't have to say, hey, sometimes my penis doesn't work how I want it to, or, hey, sometimes I come really quickly. We can absolutely say that. And that, again, is putting our ego to the side and just allowing ourselves to be vulnerable. And vulnerability is sexy.

Christine Raiff:

But we can also say things like, you know, I like to get to know people before I have sex with them or penetrative sex with them, or, like, I really love taking things super slow. And, like, there's nothing sexier to me than like, really teasing and building anticipation before we do anything sexual or before we have penetrative sex or before we take our clothes off and doing that slow arousal and that slow build where you can bring awareness to your breath, where you can bring awareness to the senses, where you can, like, enact, I guess, the tools that we spoke about because you're slowing the down rather than thinking, I'm so stressed, am I going to be able to have penetrative sex? So, like, let's just rush straight to it. And you're not giving yourself any space or time to, like, settle into the moment, to relax into the moment. So I think, like, yeah, when it comes to communication, like, honesty is the best policy, I find. But if it feels too much much to be like, hey, sometimes, like, I get a bit nervous when I'm having sex with people for the first time. And so, like, if this happens, then what I'd love is to just do something else instead. Then we can actually just say, like, I really love focusing on you. I would absolutely love it if we took things super slow.

Christine Raiff:

I love building anticipation. Or I don't like sex with people until I know them really well, and then it makes it feel, like, way better for me. How does that feel sound for you if you take things slow?

Freya Graf:

Yeah, love that advice. Awesome. So do you have a TMI story for us before we wrap up?

Christine Raiff:

I can craft one. I mean, it's funny because we about this before where, you know, like, because of the industry that we work in, it's like we created this space of permission.

Freya Graf:

Nothing's TMI for us.

Christine Raiff:

Exactly. That, I guess, socially, like other people would think is tmi and like, this is not my TMI anecdote. But as I'm talking about this, I'm thinking about when I go, I'm out for like, dinner or out in public and like, with my family and with my friends, because nothing is tmi and because I talk about this stuff every single day, I just will say things and like, we'll talk about. And I have a really loud voice and I'll just talk about Sex. And I'll talk about orgasms and I'll talk about like, you know, relationship concerns and infidelity and whatever and you can. My dad especially, he loves it, I think. But he also is like looking around like those people hear us and like. And I'm just like, who fucking cares?

Freya Graf:

My mum like shushes me if we're at a restaurant or something and I'm talking too loudly and oh yeah, people are very uncomfortable with it.

Christine Raiff:

Yeah. Yeah. But I suppose then like, if I think about TMI sex, to me nothing is tmi. I, I think you. In my bio I mentioned that like I was having my own issues with sex when I was younger and I had gotten post infectious IBS from salmonella that I got really badly when I was in the US in 2010. So I was having all these issues with like, like chronic constipation and like really like debilitating pain. All this stuff which was really impacting my sex life, which is how I got onto the trajectory of studying this because there was no information out there at that time. I was just a 20 year old being like, I have no desire and there's something wrong with me.

Christine Raiff:

But like, I constantly talk about poo and like bowel movements and constipation and diarrhea and laxatives and like, I think where sex to me doesn't feel like tmi, sometimes people are like, okay, that's actually like, like too much to hear. And it always is. Like while we're waiting for our food to come out at a restaurant, like we're just talking about.

Freya Graf:

Oh God. Well, far out. I'm glad you managed to overcome that. That sounds horrific. Like, yeah, mixing. Mixing pain and bowel issues with sex is a very difficult task.

Christine Raiff:

Yeah, it's. It's a lifelong journey.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. And honestly, way more common than I think anyone realizes. Yeah. And it's such a big preoccupation.

Christine Raiff:

Yeah. It's interesting. Like I have so many clients who experience like that. I think, I mean having digestive and bowel issues for women is actually not uncommon. It's more common and is quite common and obviously stress plays into that as well. And like pelvic floor and all these sort of things. There's so much like interrelated. But I so often have clients talk to me about like their embarrassing bowel issues or like, you know, they're like, oh, this might be too much information and then they'll share something and I just like.

Christine Raiff:

So I'm very, you know, like therapeutic relationship. I'm not just going to be like, let me tell you about my bowel issues. But like when they said I'm just like, like nodding so hard, like I so heavily get it. I'm like, I understand. Yeah.

Freya Graf:

Oh. Which would be so healing for them, honestly, just to feel understood and seen and like, you know, they're not the only one. Yeah. Beautiful. All right, my love, well, I know you gotta go. This has been an awesome chat. Thank you so much. I'll put your work links everything in the show notes.

Freya Graf:

Is there anything you just want to like, leave the listeners with as like a final little piece that you feel like we haven't already hashed out?

Christine Raiff:

I guess like just slow the down.

Freya Graf:

Yes, I will second that.

Christine Raiff:

Yeah, just slow down. If we slow down, we give ourselves much more space to breathe and to do all the things that can help us feel more relaxed, more present, more grounded and yeah, I mean, honestly, just also unlearn everything that we are learned that is not helpful to us.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. Preach. All right. Love it. Thank you so much. And that's it. Darling hearts, thanks for stopping by the Labia Lounge. Your bum groove in the couch will be right where you left it.

Freya Graf:

Just waiting for you to sink back in for some more double L action next time. If you'd be a dear and subscribe, share this episode or leave a review on itunes. Then you can pat yourself on the snatch because this that's a downright act of sex positive feminist activism and you'd be supporting my vision to educate, empower, demystify and destigmatise with this here podcast. I'm also always open to feedback, topic ideas that you'd love to hear, covered questions or guest suggestions. So feel free to get in touch via my website or over on Insta. You can also send me in TMI stories to be shared anonymously on the Polish. My handle is freyagrafthelabielounge. If my account hasn't been deleted for being too sex positive, which is always a possibility with censorship.

Freya Graf:

But just in case the chronic censorship finally does obliterate my social channels, I'd highly recommend going and joining my mailing list and snagging yourself some fun freebies for the trouble at www.freyagraf.com freebies. Anyway, anyway, later labial legends. See you next time.