Body Image Blues and How to Feel Confident in The Bedroom with Amy Campbell

Freya Graf:

This program is brought to you by Pussy Magnets.

Amy Campbell:

Welcome.

Freya Graf:

Welcome, my lovely lumps, Or should I say lovely labs? I'm so thrilled to have you here in the Labia Lounge. We're gonna yarn about all things sexuality, womanhood, relationships, intimacy, holistic health, and everything in between. Your legs. Oh. Can't help myself. Anyway, we're gonna have vag loads of real chats with real people about real shit. So buckle up. You're about to receive the sex ed that you never had and have a bloody good laugh while you're at it.

Freya Graf:

Before we dive in, I'd like to respectfully acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land on which I'm recording this, the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin nation. It's an absolute privilege to be living and creating dope podcast content in Naarm and I pay respect to their elders past, present and emerging. Now, if you're all ready, let's flap and do this. Oh my god. Is there such thing as too many vagina jokes in the one intro? Whatever. It's my podcast. I'm leaving it in. Hey, gang.

Freya Graf:

Just before we jump into this episode, I wanted to offer you an opportunity to access my new mini course for free before I start charging for it in future. It's for people with vulvas and it's quick to complete. It's all about demystifying the female body and pleasure anatomy and getting some basic fundamentals to understand your body better. It's called Pussy Pleasure Secrets, Your Roadmap to Bedroom Bliss. You can grab it on the freebies page of my website or in the show notes. It's a great little free resource to kind of dip your toe in or act as a bit of a taster for my work. So if you've ever been curious about this sort of thing and you just don't know where to start or you want a really quick, easy, accessible, non threatening way to get the ball rolling and start working on this stuff, this is a great place to start. Hey, all you labial legends.

Freya Graf:

Welcome back. Today's episode is on a really common thing that so many people come up against, and that is how body image shapes intimacy. And we're going to also chat about how to reclaim sexual confidence if you've been really grappling with that that self consciousness or body image, pressure interrupting your sexy experiences. So if you're anything like I used to be, unlike the vast majority of the clients that I see, you might struggle with a very loud inner critic that inconveniently shows up in the bedroom. And the work I had to do to overcome this involved a lot of a lot of a lot of stuff, but a lot of untangling of, like, my body shame, my self consciousness, low self esteem, high self doubt, performance anxiety, conditioned shame. I had a lot of that. And just generally, like, a very busy, distracting, kind of critical mind that didn't actually allow me to just enjoy pleasure and presence with partners. So as my regular listeners certain technique.

Freya Graf:

It's much more about feeling present and safe and connected. And yet so many people struggle with feeling comfortable in their skin and in their authentic sexual expression, and that directly impacts desire, confidence and pleasure, which is a bloody shame because being distracted by critical or anxious thoughts about how we look, how we feel, how we smell, how we taste, and just generally worrying about what the other person's thinking, robs us of the ability to truly just enjoy the ride and be present with our lovers and present with our own body and with all the pleasurable sensations that our bodies can feel if given the space. So today I have Amy Campbell with me to tackle this topic and to give us some practical tips on how to minimize the impact of our inner critic and step into sexual confidence and liberation. Amy is an absolute powerhouse. She's a clinical psychologist and sex educator dedicated to helping people cultivate better sex and deeper intimacy without the myths and the guesswork. With over a decade of training in psychology and sexology, she brings a science backed, no BS approach to sexual wellness. As the founder of Bear Psychology, Amy offers therapy, resources and professional training, blending modern psychology with practical strategies for real life intimacy. She's a member of the Australian Psychological Society and an associate of the Society of Australian Sexologists.

Freya Graf:

And she's also the author of The Mindful Sex Guide, which is coming out in May, '20 '20 '5. Super exciting timing. And it's a season by season roadmap to unlocking your pleasure potential. When she's not deep in the world of sex science, you'll find her at the beach in Perth, Western Australia, soaking up the simple joys of life. So thank you for taking a bit of time away from the the salt and the sand and the sunshine. How are you going, Amy?

Amy Campbell:

Oh, thank you for having me. It's always fun hearing someone give out your bio, isn't it?

Freya Graf:

Pumps up your tires a bit.

Amy Campbell:

Yes. But, no, I'm really excited to be here. You know, I'm a big fan. I know when we met, I just was like, this woman is matching my energy. I love it. And I think it's really good timing to jump on and have a chat.

Freya Graf:

Awesome. I actually was reflecting on where we met, and it was really funny. Maybe you can offer some insight into this, but I kind of stumbled across. It was like a networking event for women in business, or so I thought we did a speed dating thing. And as I was going around and and chatting to each person there, I realized everyone was a mom, and almost everyone's business was to do with motherhood or children or birth. And I was like, oh my god. Am I? Like and people assumed I was a mom too. So I was like, oh, shit.

Freya Graf:

Maybe I'm at, like, a mom in business event. Like, what was I? Because I was like, I just won't tell anyone.

Amy Campbell:

And then, like, I think I was just so glad that you're in the room because I was like, oh, no. Like, I I am not doing baby stuff at all. Mine is a very different topic. And is this gonna come across as really inappropriate in this room? But I loved it. Everyone was like, oh my God, yes, tell me more. But I still can't remember, I was thinking of that as well, how I actually ended up there. And I was like, was it, was it from a mum's group that I found it? I still can't remember how I got there, But I do remember being like, oh, god. Like, are they going to be like, this is you've come to the wrong place, but everyone was beautiful.

Amy Campbell:

And we both ended up there. So, obviously, it's

Freya Graf:

Exactly. Totally. That's true. It was, like, a funny moment where I started feeling like a complete imposter because, yeah, I thought, oh my gosh. I've got this wrong. It's for it's for moms, and it's for businesses about motherhood and and babies. And, and I'm here just being like, yeah, talk about sex. But, anyway, we made this connection, and that was years ago now.

Freya Graf:

So how good?

Amy Campbell:

Yes.

Freya Graf:

So through your work and your experience, how do you see body image struggles sneaking into the bedroom, and what impact does this have on people's sex lives and the satisfaction of them?

Amy Campbell:

It's such a big one. In fact, I would say I'm trying to think if there's anyone that I've actually worked with that this doesn't come up in some form for them. Right? And it's really surprising because for something that, let's say, ninety nine point nine nine nine percent of people experience, there's super little research on this. Really scarce research on body image and sexual wellness, which complicates things, right? When you want to come from this evidence space and go what am I seeing? How do I conceptualise this? How do I support someone?' And the research is going. Mhmm. So I guess I I always sort of pull it back to what we do understand in the research, and this is the pattern that I see play out all the time. So our brains have, like, these two biases that are super helpful, but when they show up here, not so helpful. So we are, by design, looking out for negative things.

Amy Campbell:

Right? What's the saying? Like, our brains are for survival, not to make us happy. And so we're constantly more prone to looking for the negative. So when it comes to body image, we're not looking at the parts of us that are great. Our bodies and our minds are really focused on what what is not going so well or what's negative about me. So I see that a lot. And then we have this other bias, the confirmation bias that goes, what I believe I'm going to see more of and I'm going to find evidence too. So what I see a lot of is, like, this worry that someone has. So maybe it's, you know, my thighs are too big or I'm too big or my vulva does not look how everyone else's does.

Amy Campbell:

And then they have all this confirmation bias stuff that is confirming that. And it's like this fucking loop that they get stuck on. And then well, like, we were we were never supposed to be in a world where we could compare this much.

Freya Graf:

Right? So Yeah.

Amy Campbell:

There's too much that they can find and compare, and half of it's bullshit.

Freya Graf:

Yeah.

Amy Campbell:

Right? They're comparing these bodies to things that are not even real. So then they're on this cycle, and then two things I see will happen. So either avoidance. So when happen. So either avoidance. So when they're in that discomfort, and it makes sense, right, you go, I am feeling bad about this thing. I'm finding all this evidence to confirm it, so I'm just, I'm gonna avoid. I'm I'm not gonna get undressed, or I'm gonna have all the lights off, or I'm not even going to to lean into pleasure practices.

Amy Campbell:

Right? I'm just gonna avoid. Or it's I'm gonna go through with it, but I'm really fucking stressed and, like, I'm white knuckling. And so then the experience they have is not pleasurable. Stress and pleasure, not not good friends. So then there's more confirmation bias and more negativity bias, and I just see this circle play out so often.

Freya Graf:

Oh, my god. And I was just thinking as you were speaking, like, if we're feeling self conscious and lacking confidence and self worth based on our physical appearance because we're constantly comparing ourselves to others in the media, we're being taught, especially as people socialized as women, that our worth is very attached to our physical appearance, then of course we're, one, not gonna be able to be, like, present and enjoying receiving and being in our own pleasure because we'll be stressed and, you know, sort of critical of ourselves and almost, what do they call it? It's so close. You know when we're, like, watching ourselves? Spectatoring.

Amy Campbell:

Oh, just

Freya Graf:

Spectatoring. Great. Now I've lost my train of thought. Classic. Great. Good start, Freya. We either, you know, are in that space or avoidant. And then, of course, like, maybe to compensate for that where and, you know, feeling like we're not worthy, we're not fuckable, we're not sort of, you know, pulling our weight in terms of being as attractive as the purse the airbrushed person or the AI generated image or the labiaplastied porn star, we then throw all of our energy into, like, making sure we please our partner and do all the right things to try to, you know, be an amazing lover even though we are fugly, you know, and just this is, I guess, the thought process that I hear of a lot.

Freya Graf:

And so sex becomes so much about what we can offer the other person because we're feeling like we can't offer a lot in the physical appearance department. And that really skews the whole experience, right?

Amy Campbell:

Yes. And then you say this, like, checking behavior start to form. Right? So partners are consistently checking in, so they're not really looking at their own pleasure. Exactly what you're saying. I'm I'm checking in or I'm trying to check-in with my body. You know, I'll hear a lot of sometimes I might practice in front of a mirror so I can check-in. What does my body look here? Do can I move in this way? Can I be naked in this way? And this consistent checking in behavior actually builds the anxiety. Right? It it it's again confirming.

Amy Campbell:

I can only do this if all these things go right. And not only is that not pleasurable for the person themselves, but on the receiving end, that constant checking in of, like, am I doing this right? Are you happy? Some ways can be great, but too much of it can also feel really stressful on the other side of like, oh, do I, I have to also perform in a certain way. Yeah.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. I mean, and we already have like issues around, you know, needing to people please and self sacrifice in order to be worthy and earning our keep because, you know, if you have been brought up as a woman, that's, that's what's been conditioned into us. So I just had a thought, you know, have you had this, it's a statistic that often comes up, I find, when people are talking about the porn habits of men versus women, heterosexual men versus women. And they're like, yep. Women watch a lot more same sex porn as, like, hetero men do. And then this statistic comes up where people talk about how there was a study that showed when a woman and a man are having sex in front of a mirror, the man is looking in the mirror at her, and she's looking at herself. And I think that's used to kind of go, Yeah, because women are attracted to the female form, blah blah blah. But it just occurred to me like, oh my god, maybe that's the case sometimes.

Freya Graf:

And then other times, it's because they're so self conscious and they're checking themselves and they're looking to see what he's seeing and curating, you know, his perspective of of her by, like, making sure she's holding her body in a certain way and and then letting the inner critic run wild. Like, do you think that that's actually what's going on a lot of the time rather than her just appreciating her female form?

Amy Campbell:

Yes. It's so interesting because I have always interpreted in that way. It's so interesting to hear another perspective and why we need more research into this. Right? But, yes, I've always sort of saw it as and particularly, a lot of women will use porn as sex education. Right? So, yes, she's watching going, is how do, how do I move? What does that look like? What do I do? And in the same way, yes, I think in that statistic of she will watch herself, a lot of the time I would see and I would hear from my clients, it is, it's that checking. Am I okay? Does this look okay? Even, you know, extending to making videos, you know, the the man will view it in typically a a very different way. Whereas for, one who's socialized in that way, it's, can I check that I looked how I thought I was gonna look?

Freya Graf:

Yes. And critiquing herself and her performance as opposed to maybe watching it back like the man might be to just, like, relive and get aroused and, you know, feel more sexually alive because of it. She's almost it's it's like a coach that runs back replays of, like, athletes' performances and critiques where they could have done better. And because I hadn't thought about that. I was just like because of the context that that statistic and that study is cited, usually I just got the impression of like, oh, yeah, she's just feeling herself. But actually that might not be the case a lot of the time.

Amy Campbell:

Wow. That's such an important point as well around how studies about sex and sexuality and sexual pleasure, they make for a beautiful little headline. Right? I saw one the other day that was like I don't say like, you're more likely to die oh, women are more likely to die if they don't have sex once a week or something. I was like, what? I've not I've not read this one. And then exactly, like, when when you get into it and read it, you're like, hang on. That's that's an assumption that we maybe shouldn't have made. But it makes it really tricky. Right? Yeah.

Amy Campbell:

And then adds layers of pressure. If I'm seeing that, then I'm like, should I be watching porn in this way and getting aroused in this way? Because that's what I'm seeing this this research article is saying. And then inside you're like, I'm just looking at myself in the mirror because I'm not sure how my butt looks when I'm bent over. And you're like, oh, that's not what other people are doing. And then another layer of shame.

Freya Graf:

Yep. Yep. And comparing and feeling as though we're coming up short when compared with how everyone else is, you know, doing it and feeling about it. So, yeah, and that's the beauty of resources like this because just normalizing talking about it allows for everyone to realize they're not alone, they're not the only ones having this experience, and starts to chip away or at least, you know, remove some of the power that that shame has over us. So I, like, I wanna ask about, like I wanna get into how to actually help this, what can be done about it. But I'm really curious, how do you feel about it when people alter their appearance and change their body in an attempt to feel more confident and, like, more present in the bedroom, or or perhaps just feel more worthy, more lovable, dare I say more fuckable in terms of like cosmetic procedures, surgeries, potentially just all the different ways that we can alter our appearance to conform to sort of beauty standards. Like, what are your feelings and thoughts on on that when women do that so that they can feel more confident and therefore more present in the bedroom?

Amy Campbell:

I think there's two big feelings that arise for me here. One is, like, it completely makes sense. Yeah. Right? I I I can understand it, and I I can really feel why it's so popular. And I think there's, you know, another layer of that in a consumer driven culture going, it doesn't make sense to fix the problem unless we have to pay for it. Right? So one part of me is, like, it just makes total sense. I understand that cognitively. I'm like, yeah.

Amy Campbell:

Okay. I I understand how you arrived there. And then there's this other part of me that really feels such a deep level of grief. Like, I can feel it. It's such a funny thing that I am. Like, I'm getting emotional even as we talk about it and particularly when I might see people after the fact because it typically, from what I have seen, doesn't work. It doesn't solve the problem because mind blown, it was never done in the first place. Right.

Amy Campbell:

So whatever procedure, whatever they've done tends to never be enough and then they're feeling worse. And so I just have this massive sense of grief around this is what we are pressured into almost. Yeah. And it's heartbreaking.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. Yep. I feel really, really similarly. And I have, you know, an episode on, on beauty labor and, all of this sort of stuff with an amazing guest called Jesse Neilan. So I'd really recommend people jump onto that episode. It's around, like, beauty privilege and the amount of, like, beauty labor we do just to be, you know, seen or treated in certain ways. And I feel I feel like I completely get it. I so understand.

Freya Graf:

There's no judgment. It's, like, actually just no surprise that this is where we're at, and also deeply sad and deeply ragey. Like, I am so mad. It is so unfair that, like, this is where we've been pushed to, to, like, spend more money, go through more pain, spend more time and resources, you know, especially women, when we're already paid less. And we already have less capacity because we're holding 80% of the mental and emotional load in a household and we're sort of up against it already. We are definitely more oppressed and, you know, in terms of, like, equity, just disadvantaged compared to men. And yet we spend an insane amount of money and time and our limited resources on just trying to keep up with the Kardashians and, like, look certain ways in order to feel like we even deserve love and pleasure, and we can keep a partner or we can attract a partner. And yeah, there's so much sadness when I think about you know, 18 year old me who went and spent years getting thousands upon thousands of dollars of laser hair removal because I was so bullied about being hairy, and I was so unacceptable and unattractive for a woman.

Freya Graf:

And it was excruciatingly painful. It took a lot of time and petrol. It took a lot of money. It just, you know, it detracted from my capacity in all these ways. And that was just to feel even marginally okay to have somebody touch me or have the lights on in sex. And that was, you know, that was probably the most extreme thing I did, though I was definitely considering things like boob jobs. I was considering all these things. But luckily for me, it was at a time where that was less normalised and less accessible.

Freya Graf:

There wasn't all the injectables and all of the BBLs and stuff. And I also just sort of luckily stumbled across a certain subculture and community of people that really helped me, like, recognize my value outside of what I looked like and move move away from those sort of procedures. But I was so deeply insecure, and I just feel really, really sad when I think about how young I was and from such a young age, just desperately wanting to change so much about my appearance. And so I completely understand, and I have so much compassion and empathy for all of the women that do this, and I'm so fucking mad that we feel the need to. And in saying that, like, I someone asked me the other day if I regretted doing it. It's, it's sort of it's something that I I think I would do it again. Because at that time, I don't think I could have it was such a bridge for me to get to a place where I was even comfortable enough to be touched and slowly get more more confident with my naked body. And I think either it would have taken me many years longer if I hadn't have gotten rid of my, like, body hair, my, like, pubes and stuff.

Freya Graf:

But, yeah. And and it was a sort of it felt, at least at the time, like a necessary step. And now I wouldn't I wouldn't make the same decision from where I'm at these days, but I really don't regret doing it because it was a huge, like, stepping stone for me, and it allowed me to, yeah, to gain the confidence to even start doing the work on my sexuality and going to the, you know, the retreats and the trainings and, having sexual relationships with people and practicing new tools of self acceptance. So, you know, it's really complex. Like, it actually helped me a lot, but I hate that I had to do it. You know, it's really nuanced.

Amy Campbell:

And there's almost like a gaslight y part to that. I'm so glad you speak to that experience because often there's, like, the other side of, like, the toxic body positivity that's, like, you should just be happy with it. Like, so now, of course, now you know, like, you shouldn't have had the laser. And it's, like, but actually, let's not gaslight women or or anyone for that matter in that it does matter. It shouldn't matter. Mhmm. But let's not tell people it doesn't. Right? Because then there's another leather level of shame and barriers there.

Amy Campbell:

Because if you were telling me it shouldn't matter, but then every time I go somewhere, I'm faced with this negativity. That's not going to support me either. And that's something that I see a lot of this idea around, no, you should just be happy with it. And it's like, yes, I hear you, but also can we can we bring into the conversation that that's not the society we currently live in?

Freya Graf:

Yep.

Amy Campbell:

And yes, we we change it by moving, but also to live in the society as it is now, we may need certain bits of armor to do that. And that's something that I don't see talked about as much. There's almost this gaslight of, like, no. No. It should all be really comfortable, which I agree with, but let's

Freya Graf:

not be coming. That's

Amy Campbell:

not reality. Yes.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. And I've talked about this on the podcast before where it was this really interesting challenge internally because, you know, I'd felt so much sort of societal pressure to remove my body hair. Did that, then found, you know, this festival called Con Fest, which is kind of like really hippie, nude clothing optional kind of experience, lots of pretty alternative folk. And I started making all these friends that were very, like, empowered in their body and had really hairy legs and big bushes. And I'd find myself in these environments having a little skinny dip in the river, after sort of finally getting to a place where I was comfortable in my body because I'd removed my body hair, and then feeling judged for not having a bush and not having hairy legs and feeling as though I wasn't, like, shanti shanti enough and that people were, sort of thinking, oh god, she must be so, like, insecure, and she's not a real feminist. And, you know, it's not that anyone ever said that to me, but in my mind, I was then feeling societal pressure from a whole other angle that made me feel, guilty and sort of silly for removing my body hair. Like, that said said something about me that really went against this new identity I was trying to trying to kinda lean into where I was, you know, empowered and feminist and all this. So you kind of can't win.

Freya Graf:

And I think it's not realistic to, yeah, like you said, it's not realistic to hold ourselves to such higher standards and also ever changing standards. And I

Amy Campbell:

think this is where, you know, understanding what your brain is doing in those moments sometimes provides some relief in itself, you know, knowing that the comparison is happening on automatic. Right? As at any time you're in a group of people, you are automatically going to compare yourself. Like you said, it wasn't necessarily something someone said, but your brain is constantly looking out for, am I gonna fit in? Am I gonna be safe? I know you've talked about this lots on the podcast, but that idea of, like, it's our caveman brain, right? Back in the day there was only, like, 10 other people and if we didn't fit in we were dead. Yeah. But now we we're not comparing to like the 10 people in our tribe, we've got 10,000,000 people that I can flick through or different spaces, right? So one space that's acceptable and another space and knowing that your brain's not trying to harm you, knowing that your brain's not trying to harm you here, it's just doing the comparison to go, am I safe? And then going, okay, like, let's remind myself I'm actually safe. It's okay if they, you know, think I should have this or that. But sometimes it's even just knowing, oh, that's what my brain's doing in that moment

Freya Graf:

that can really help. Totally. Totally. Cool. So I'd love to get into some strategies for what we can actually do to to help ourselves when our kind of negativity bias and our comparison and our body image challenges start to infiltrate our experiences, you know, in the bedroom. But first, I'd love to do the segment get pregnant and die. Don't have sex because you will get pregnant and die. Don't have sex in the missionary position.

Freya Graf:

Don't have to have sex standing up. Just don't do it. Promise? Do you have a story for us about your sex ed?

Amy Campbell:

I do. And I feel like it actually flows really well. But when I was thinking, I was like, actually, this is perfect because I it's banned into my brain. People that have watched me before are probably gonna be like, I've heard this story from Amy before, but I just can't get past it because I went into my sexology one zero one, my first sort of intro into higher sex education. And I remember sitting there, and she was talking about the vagina and then started talking about the vulva. And in that moment, I was like, oh, fuck. She's talking about them like they're different things, and I don't know what they are. And I remember thinking, how the fuck did I get to university with someone who has an interest in this? Right? Like, I I I'd been planning.

Amy Campbell:

That's what I wanted to focus on in uni and not know the name of my own sexual parts. How did that happen? And I thought, oh, that, you know, rage against the patriarchy. That wouldn't happen to a man. I I as she was going through, I knew the anatomy. Right? I I could point out all the different parts for a male body, but in that I I literally was like, oh my god. After this, I need to go and have a quick Google. And I just let me figure out what's what's going on there and then, you know, further to that. And perhaps this one, I I can have a bit more compassion for my sex educators in that we only recently know more about the clitoris, but the same thing of going, oh, fuck.

Amy Campbell:

Like, I did not know that. And so I think that that was my rage moment where I was like, no. That that really lit a fire into I need to learn this stuff first, and then I need to make it so accessible that every everyone knows. Not we're we're no longer going, oh, shit. I found out because some it it's just something that anyone with that anatomy knows.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And, yeah, as a parent, I'm sure you are using the correct anatomical terms from the get go so that your kids don't wind up in that position.

Amy Campbell:

Definitely. It was, my son does use the term vulva, and I can't even remember why, but use and the idea that that's vulva and that's vagina. And someone was quite, like, offended that he was using those terms, You know, he he was quite young and being able in that moment to recognize the shame that's associated with using those words. Yeah. I I hadn't quite seen it until I saw that moment, and I was like, I reckon if he had said penis or something, it it wouldn't have had the same shock value. But everyone at that play date sort of went, like, did did he just say that? And recognizing even now that that is still terms that people find really hits their shame button and really confronting. So the more we can use them, the better.

Freya Graf:

Oh, my God. That makes me so sad that, you know, and it's just the reality, but even if you do all the things you can at home, they're still going to go out into the world and potentially get shamed for things like that. Anyway, thank you for sharing that. That's a great get pregnant and die. That's quintessential. So let's tackle what to do about it if your body image struggles are really creeping into the bedroom. Where do we start? What are your best best tips? Hey, baby babes. Sorry to interrupt.

Freya Graf:

I just had to pop my head into the lounge here and mention another virtual lounge that I'd love you to get around. It's the Labia Lounge Facebook group that I've created for listeners of the potty to mingle in. There you'll find extra bits and bobs like freebies behind the scenes or discounts for offerings from guests who have been interviewed on the podcast. They'll also be, hopefully, inspiring, thought provoking conversations and support from a community of labial legends like yourself. My vision for this is that it becomes a really supportive, educational and hilarious resource for you to have more access to me and a safe space to ask questions you can't ask anywhere else. So head over to links in the show notes or look up the Labia Lounge group in Facebook and I'll see you in there. And now back to the episode.

Amy Campbell:

What I often hear is people want the confidence. Right? So it's like or even when I'm looking at resources online, it's like sort of how to get the confidence so you can go in the bedroom. But it's a bit of a conflicting idea in that we build confidence from doing the thing. Right. I'm not going to be confident in something if I'm not doing the thing. And so laying the foundation that it's okay for some of this to be uncomfortable. And it's okay to sit in some of the discomfort as you're you're moving your way through. And maybe your big goal is confidence, but it's alright if it's not there yet.

Amy Campbell:

And I think perhaps as a society, we have become and I'm including myself in this, but we're really resistant to any level of discomfort now. Right? Even that, before I eat something, I can Google and make sure it's gonna taste good. Like, I don't there's no surprises for me. I can figure everything out. And when we're living in a space like that, it can be really hard to sit in even the neutral feelings. Right? And so I guess I want to like disclaimer with that is it's okay to have a bit of discomfort as you're working through this stuff. And then I think the thing that really helps is being able to notice what is going on in your brain. Notice the thoughts and detach from them a little bit, notice their, what their purpose is.

Amy Campbell:

Notice what, why they're showing up in that moment, sort of being able to create a new story around them. When our thoughts are just on autopilot like this, they almost feel like the truth, Like, it it's reality. And being able to take them out and go, why is this here right now? And, like, the conversation we've just had together now being like, oh, yeah. I can see how that's come from here and here and here. And so in that moment you can go, oh, yes, that's my comparison thought. Or yes, that's my, I should look a certain way thought. And once we're able to do that, once we're able to almost see our thoughts as like a mental sensation, right, we can notice them not as reality, but as something that's showing up and it's eliciting a response in us. And then the magic in that is then you have the ability to move to a different sensation.

Amy Campbell:

So if you can notice your thought as like this mental sensation, you have the ability to then move your attention. And practicing this outside of sex, outside of pleasure, being able to go, can I check-in with my body, notice what I'm feeling, almost like a skill? So then the confidence builds. And then when you're getting in there, instead of going, oh my God, my thighs are way too big here. You can notice, yep, that that's my comparison thought. I can notice that as a mental sensation of, oh, that one's sticky. Right. And then I can come back and go, what can I notice about my thighs? You know, maybe they're touching together. Maybe they feel a bit of pain.

Amy Campbell:

Maybe if I move them in a certain way, they're gonna feel better. And all of a sudden you're in this space where you can lean into what your body's feeling rather than going, how do I change this? How, how do I get out of this? How do I move it? You're actually in a space where you're going, how do I work with this? How do I change and move?

Freya Graf:

Beautiful. Something that that reminded me of was was something that I used to do a lot, and I'd love to hear your thoughts on this because when you're mentioning, okay, I'm noticing these critical thoughts about my thighs. I'm comparing. That's a shitty sensation. How can I make my thighs how can I notice things about them and make them feel better? I might, like, move them. That might feel better. That sort of sparked a memory in me where I would I would have those thoughts. I'd feel self conscious.

Freya Graf:

I'd feel hideous. I'd feel yucky. And that was uncomfortable. And I would move and position my body in ways that I thought were gonna look and feel more sexy to the other person. So I would suck in my tummy. I would, you know, I was really, really self conscious of having small breasts, so I would always kinda try to be on my side or something to, like, squish them together and and sort of manufacture a bit more cleavage. Or I would tweak my nipples to make them go hard because I was really self conscious of what they were like when they were soft. I would arch my back so that it was gonna and all of a sudden, I'm completely curating everything about how I'm holding my body for the other person, but that is making me feel a little bit more comfortable in this scenario because I care so much about what the other person thinks.

Freya Graf:

And then all of a sudden, yeah, I'm doing everything for the other person. And in a way, that's for me because it makes me feel slightly less uncomfortable with how self conscious I am. So it's this, like, vicious cycle, and we're not really following our pleasure. We're not really actually following what's gonna feel better for us from a perspective of pleasure, but what's gonna feel better for us from a perspective of lessening the self consciousness and the criticism that we're noticing running in our mind. So what do you think of that? Like, how do we know when we're moving ourselves to feel better, but from that place versus, you know, actually a sort of empowered pleasure place?

Amy Campbell:

Yeah, such a good point. And I think this sort of underpins the entire practice of mindfulness. So mindfulness is paying attention intentionally without judgement, Right? So when we're paying attention, we are purposely doing it in a way that comes from non judgment. So, for example, you know, if I'm noticing that my I'm notice the thought around, oh, well, what do my nipples look like? Do they look weird when they're not erect? So we can go, okay. How would I describe that nonjudgmentally? So I might be able to go, okay. They they sit in this certain way. They have this certain shape, and all of a sudden I'm coming back into my body. Right? I'm noticing without judgment.

Amy Campbell:

I'm just noticing what is there. That's the non judgment part. I'm describing what I notice in the moment without the judgment. The judgments are gonna come, but I I'm noticing them as that, you know, mental sensation, that judgment thought. And then I'm coming back and I'm going, can I just describe what is here without my story about it? And then the the other part of that is, you know, directing your attention intentionally. So I might have set the intention that, like you said, I I wanna focus on my pleasure. One that I like to anchor people with is what am I doing because I love my body versus because I wanna change it? You know? What what is the intention behind the movement? And I think you you put that really beautifully of, like, I I was noticing and then I was moving, but my intention was, you know, how do I change it to to look more fuckable or how do I change it to avoid rejection or or those things? And being able to go, can I notice what is here in the moment nonjudgmentally? And then can I connect it to my intention? You know, my intention might be to experience pleasure or to to feel good or or whatever, you know, you've sort of set it up as. So being able to notice that.

Amy Campbell:

And I think also making space for some of the discomfort. We don't always necessarily have to change the uncomfortable feeling. Sometimes it's just noticing that it's there.

Freya Graf:

Yeah, because it's such a distraction. I used to find that as soon as I go into those thoughts and being aware of my body in kind of a critical way, it would distract me from what was actually happening and what sensations I was actually feeling. And because I was really distracted and feeling tense and critical, the amount of pleasure I could access was diminished. And there was something else I wanted to touch on. Let me see if I can wrangle it back. Oh, something that I I don't know if this is if this is sort of for everyone at every stage of their journey, but something that I found helpful and I'm curious to hear your thoughts on is, like and I give this as homework sometimes, especially if I know that people have, like, awesome partners. I would get, you know, the partner to describe say, you know, it's my nipples and my breasts that I feel self conscious about. Get the partner to describe what they feel and what they see, to me.

Freya Graf:

And then I'd, one, hear their critical voices. So do you feel like that could be a helpful tool just to kind of broaden people's perspective and, like, I guess, I guess, quieten the insecurities and also, round out, like decentralise their specific experience of their body, which is always going to be more sort of judgmental and critical, and broaden it out to include other people's realities and versions of how our bodies are perceived.

Amy Campbell:

Yeah. I think it's a really beautiful practice. Right? And I I think you said sort of the key thing you're looking out for, like, what type of partner have I got here? Yeah. And I guess the the bit where the mindfulness would come in in the sexual practices is getting the partner to describe it in that same nonjudgmental way. I I think you're you're picking people who are naturally doing this already. Right? But getting that practice and getting that feedback in even describing, you know, sometimes it will do things like, art based things where what sort of shapes can you see and what sort of colors can you see. So we're starting to really pay attention to the body and notice it in a different way. Right? So we're we're no longer seeing it as fat or thin or too big or too small.

Amy Campbell:

We're discovering it in this whole new way of like, oh my goodness, did we know that the nipples had so many different colors and little shapes around them? And so that's, I think, a really beautiful one to bring partners into for that reflection piece of if I'm finding it really hard to find myself, can they reflect that back? And or even doing it on your own, being able to go, can I set myself a little? And I particularly when it comes to the vulva and the labia, there's so much shame and we have so many expectations around what it should look like. Being able to look at it from a completely different lens, you know. Can you see it as different shapes? Can you see it as different colors? Yeah. When you're touching it, can you just describe the sensations without the pressure, right? Not necessarily even in the intention to feel pleasure, but just, can I notice everything that's there? And I know this is a big part of your, your practice with the mapping. And so being able to get people to detach from these stories and thoughts and see and be in their bodies in a different way to discover them separate. And I think, again, acknowledging this is hard. Yeah. Right? This isn't like one practice.

Amy Campbell:

Like, I did it and suddenly I'm super confident. I feel anytime I hear someone that's like, oh, mindfulness didn't work for me, it's because they tried it once. Like, thinking of this is, like, this is a skill that you build up over years. It's a practice. It's about choosing the the intent each time, and that's where the confidence comes from. Not like I do this thing and then I'm confident. It's because I do and and practice in this way so much that I feel the confidence.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. And I would love to I'd love to double tap on that and really emphasize that we need to normalize these mental and emotional skills, require practice just the same as muscles that need strengthening. I think everyone recognizes that you're not gonna go to the gym once and, like, get really muscly or lose a bunch of weight. You're gonna have to go and strengthen those muscles day in, day out. And over time, you notice some change. And it's gonna be hard. And it's gonna be you know, there will be discomfort. And you will have to be persistent and have some discipline.

Freya Graf:

It's the same with all this stuff, except for some reason, because we do live in such a kind of fast paced society that's very, you know, obsessed with, like, instant gratification and dopamine hits and, like, fast results and taking shortcuts basically, to get to where you wanna go in terms of goals. I think, like, a lot of people don't understand just how much time and practice some of these things can take. And you can see improvements along the way, but there might be a period of time where it just feels hard and uncomfortable, and the results might be really incremental. But it's a mental muscle that you have to really work out, and that just takes consistent practice. But I love, you know, what you're saying about just trying to neutralize the way we feel about certain body parts that we might have had a lot of stories attached to, and criticism attached to. So that kind of perfectly segues into what I want to talk about next because you were mentioning how common it is for people to feel really self conscious and judgemental about their volvers. And, you know, I'm going to say that that's probably in large part due to pornography, due to modern beauty standards in the media, and all of a sudden having like thousands of bodies and images that we can compare our own to, which is not how we were designed. That's not realistic.

Freya Graf:

I wanna talk about breaking free from unrealistic sexual expectations because I know, like, both of us talk a lot in our work about how social media and Hollywood, you know, and the media have so much to answer for. What are some common expectations that you come across, in the sexual realm that are just super unrealistic or even harmful? And how do we release ourselves from the pressure to conform to these unrealistic expectations?

Amy Campbell:

I think you're right. It segues straight in because I think a lot of what I say is this idea that it's almost like sexual perfectionism. So it's like sex is supposed to be pleasure from goo to woah. It should never need work. If it needs work, if you're doing it wrong. And that it should just be a % easeful and absolutely no one needs to talk about it because if you're having really good sex, right, it just magically is intuitive and happens. Mhmm. And that's probably the story I I see most, and it's this idea and getting out of our heads that sex is perfect.

Amy Campbell:

And I think this comes through our we don't wanna sit with discomfort anymore. So we don't want there to be discomfort in initiating sex. We are not used to normalizing that sex is not actually just pleasure, pleasure, pleasure, pleasure, pleasure, pleasure. It's like some neutral feelings, some really good feelings. Oh, that didn't feel so good. And it, it goes up and down, right? And it's working that balance and being able to stay present during that. But we've almost made that into a problem, right? And this idea that we're not supposed to work on it, right? Sometimes I'll see couples and it's, you know, the sex we're having is not great anymore or perhaps there's not as much desire. And when we get talking, it's just like they just the assumption was and not there, like, I think the societal message was just that it was gonna be amazing without any effort or work.

Amy Campbell:

And I love it's the beautiful metaphor. Right? I I wouldn't expect my physical body and my physical wellness to be on point without effort. I I acknowledge that I'm sometimes going to have to do things that are a bit uncomfortable in order to be healthy in some aspects of my physical health. But when it comes to sex and pleasure, there's this idea that if I have to work on it, something's wrong with me. And, like, I sort of I I'm still constantly always learning. Sexual education is something that is lifelong. I I am never gonna figure it all out. And normalizing this for people that we need to work on it.

Amy Campbell:

We need to prioritize it. We need to continue to educate, and it's not perfect. It's messy and awkward sometimes and uncomfortable. And sometimes it's neutral even.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. Big time.

Amy Campbell:

Rant over.

Freya Graf:

I'm here for it. I'm living for it. I feel like I got on that rant on the reg because yeah. I mean, pleasure, orgasm, all of this mindfulness, it's their learned skills, you know? They actually don't just come innately. Like, yes, sex is natural, but it doesn't mean that we know exactly how to do it straight away. Walking's natural. We still had to learn to do that with lots of practice. So this whole kind of expectation that, like, you should just magically know exactly what you're doing because it's so natural and so primal, and you just intuit exactly what your partner needs and what your own body needs, and it will just happen.

Freya Graf:

Like, that is such bullshit, and it's so harmful because then everyone's just trying to live up to these completely unrealistic and, dare I say, impossible expectations of their bodies and of their partners' bodies. And then we're comparing ourselves to a fucking, like, fable. You know, that's just not a thing. So, yeah. And, you know, then there's things like some other sort of expectations that I come across a lot, are like, you know, women are just gonna be able to, pump out an orgasm really quickly from penetration alone after, like, five minutes of making out. That's really standard kinda one. You know, I'm sure, like, men also have their own set of expectations placed on them around, like, lasting for ages in the bedroom, being able to maintain a rock hard erection for a long time without you know, like, you know, you were saying, sexuality, it really ebbs and flows. There's ups and downs.

Freya Graf:

There's twists and turns. And erections aren't designed to be full capacity for a prolonged period of time, the kind of firmness and and sort of engorgement of an erection ebbs and flows. There is fluctuation in all of this, but we're kind of just expected to perform on cue, get an erection, keep it as long as, you know, required to pump out a bunch of multiple orgasms from your female partner that should magically just know how to do that. And then, you know, it you're less of a man if you can't do that or whatever, which, you know, it's there's so many things that we're expecting our bodies to do on call, to produce results and tick boxes and get to these goals that are so overemphasised. You know, just this emphasis on orgasm being the be all and end all, and penetrative sex being sex, you know, the only kind of sex that matters. So, yeah, there's a lot of, like, really unrealistic expectations that have crept in and are now so normalized as the kind of standard, and I'm constantly trying to dismantle those. And on that note, I would love to, because we have really similar opinions on this, and I'm trying to bring it more into my work. But I wanna hear your take on why the word foreplay is pretty due for retirement.

Freya Graf:

Because I agree, but it's really tricky when clients use that word so commonly, and it's so universally understood. It's hard to replace it with anything else that people are gonna kinda understand. I sometimes say call play. But, yeah, like, give me a rant about why you hate the word foreplay or the concept of foreplay. Excuse this quick interruption. I'm shamelessly seeking reviews and five star ratings for the potty because as I'm sure you've noticed by now, it's pretty fab. And the more people who get to hear it, the more people I can help with it. Reviews and ratings actually do make a big difference to this little independent podcaster, and it's really easy to just quickly show your support by taking that simple act of either leaving five stars for the show on Spotify or, even better, writing a written review and leaving five stars over on Apple Podcasts.

Freya Graf:

Or if you're a real overachiever, you can do them both. That would be mad. If you're writing a review though, just be sure to use g rated words because despite the fact that this is a podcast about sexuality, words like sex can be censored and your review won't make it through the gates. Lame. Anyway, I would personally recommend doing that right now while you remember just to get on top of it and let me know you're with me on this journey. Thanks, gang. Enjoy the rest of the epi.

Amy Campbell:

In itself, it just doesn't make sense. Right? And I hear it's really hard because it it's how we all as a community, as a society understand sex. No one is going, what is foreplay? Right? We we all understand it, but it gives the impression that there is a something that comes before and then there is the event. And when you talk to people about, like, what if that's the before, if that that's the before, what is the actual event? What, what are you calling sex? It tends to be penetrative sex or if that's not part of their sexual repertoire, then it tends to be an orgasm. And those are very tiny brief moments. Even if you're really practiced in tantra, you know, maybe you're having a beautiful five minute orgasm. But in in the realm of things they are small, Right? Penetration, maybe a couple of minutes, orgasm similar much less, if you are living in a male body. So this idea that sex is this tiny moment and everything else before it is just in the lead up to that makes no sense.

Amy Campbell:

Foreplay is the whole part. That's the bit that feels really good and pleasurable, right? That that is sex. And so often I just wanna get rid of it altogether and I'll start there by going, well, what are you calling sex then? You know, if that, if that's the foreplay and I'll often hear like, you know, tends to be she needs, but sometimes he, you know, needs more foreplay and unpacking what that means. Why wouldn't everyone want much, much more of the pleasurable thing, of the thing that's feeling really good? But you're right in that we're we're in this rush to the end point, which one, it's a bit like sleep. The The more you focus on getting to sleep, the less likely you are going to sleep because your body goes into fight flight because you're panicking about it. And I think you said this before in that when you were in that fight flight stage, your muscles were very tight. You can't really experience pleasure. So the more we focus on getting to the end, the less likely we are to have that be the conclusion.

Amy Campbell:

But what if everyone as a society went, what if just this intimate moment of touching for pleasure was sex? It wasn't the beginning to the moment. All of that counted. And then let's talk about, like, maybe we could move foreplay. I I would then go, like, foreplay is your life. Right? How and this is something that I don't see people do. And I think, again, it's this expectation that our desire and libido is just supposed to, like, switch on. But what if foreplay was what you do during the day to make sure that you're always connected to this excitement, this desire, what are you doing in your life that is leading you up to being ready in those moments? How do you excite yourself? How do you feel moments of pleasure? How do you activate and ignite desire in your work, in your family time so that when you are in those moments, you've built it up? Like, what if that was full play rather than we're talking about this act that it's it's almost like, oh, I saw this, in the Christmas movies. I couldn't believe it where I love this movie.

Amy Campbell:

I'm I'm gonna go this way. Pull me back if I go too far. I was watching the holiday, which is like, oh my god. I love Christmas movies. And she does decide around oh, and she says how, you know, oh, I don't I don't I'm not into foreplay. And he's like, oh, you might be the best woman I've ever met. And I thought, fuck, this is why I grew up thinking it was something. And I'm like, who wants that? Who wants that? Like, so, all right, we're not gonna have any fun, any pleasure, anything.

Amy Campbell:

We're just gonna go straight to this very small moment that's probably gonna feel a little bit dissatisfying, but it was like promoted as like that made her the best title. Like, how amazing.

Freya Graf:

Like the golden goose of women. You know, found someone who you don't have to go through the rigmarole of actually prepping the oven. Yeah. I know. I noticed that scene and I was like, what the fuck? In rewatching it in adult life, when I watched it when it came out when I was a bit younger, obviously, wouldn't have even realized how problematic that was. And I was one of those women that was like, I don't do foreplay. Let's just get to it. Because I hated being touched.

Freya Graf:

I was so self conscious. I didn't want them to touch my vulva or touch my breasts because I was so self conscious about both those areas, and I never let anyone go down on me. I was horrified of that. I didn't want them, like, touching my genitals with their fingers because they could actually feel more of what was going on, and I was so self conscious of my pubes. And I also was terrified of, like, sucking dick. So I just didn't do foreplay. And I was like, cool. Like, we know why we're here.

Freya Graf:

We're gonna make out, and then dick in vag. Like, that's that's what's happening. And that used to really surprise the men that I was sleeping with, and I didn't have any moments. I mean, maybe I did. Maybe I had moments where they were like, oh my god. Awesome. But, yeah, for me, it was coming from such a place of deep insecurity and discomfort with my own body and with those sexual acts because I had so much shame to work through. And so, yeah, of course then the penetrative sex I was having was like, yeah, often painful, you know, often numb, often just, yeah, not great because I hadn't sort of actually had enough time and pleasure and relaxation to build my arousal and my engorgement so that penetration would feel good.

Freya Graf:

And my day to day life was not about keeping the fires burning and experiencing small and large moments of regular pleasure in day to day life on all sort of fronts. It was like discipline, deprivation, self loathing, you know. So everything you just said is very, very relatable, and that's kind of why I got into this work. And I would I would love to, like, wrap up with asking you because it's this, again, perfectly sort of segues into my next question. And I wanna ask, like, for you and, with everything you've learned through your studying and your work, what the secret to feeling more confident and present during intimacy is? I mean, if obviously, there's not just one secret, but, like, if you could distill it Yeah. Like, I'd love to and we've covered some of it already, but, yeah, I'd love to just delve into that now.

Amy Campbell:

It's always like, you know, when you're sharing your story, like, you're you're giving the blueprint. Right? Like, you you just talked through the exact cycle, right, that we're talking about at the beginning of, like, you feel that discomfort so then you avoid it. Like, don't touch me. Don't do that. I don't wanna look at that. And then you have the the pain. Right? And we're we're simple creatures at heart. If we if we if something feels good, we want to do more of it.

Amy Campbell:

It's feeling bad. We want to do less of it. And then, so you get stuck in this cycle and it's only when we take it out and start talking about it, start leaning in, start bringing this into open spaces that then we start. And I hear you often talk about the work. And while I don't want to preface it as like, you know, the work and you've got to do the work or, or you're not doing well is that it's leaning in and going, how can I prioritize this for myself? If there's one secret, and you're, there's not one, but if there was one, it was, can you prioritize your pleasure? And I think that would sort of grab into everything we've talked about. Can it be a priority in your life? And I think, you know, might've missed that when we were talking around, like, what builds that confidence? Because we were talking about some really beautiful partnered exercise, but making sure that this is not just about someone else. This is about you. Even if you choose to never have sex with someone ever again, Can you prioritize your own pleasure? Can you touch and explore your body? Can you show it the love, attention, and prioritize it feeling good? Not all the time, but can that be something that you work on and that you care about just as much as any other aspect of your health?

Freya Graf:

Yeah. Massively. Massively. It's yeah. That's such good advice and it's something that we're really actively discouraged from doing in an embodied way and encouraged to do in a really disembodied way that disconnects us from ourselves and our body and our energy and our sexuality. It's like we're really pushed in the direction of finding pleasure and getting those dopamine hits from quite synthetic, unhealthy ways that are addictive and make money off us. And we're really discouraged from connecting to our bodies and finding, like, an inner source of that kind of pleasure and contentment, and becoming, I guess, someone I can't remember who it was, but described it like being a self sourcing pudding. We wanna get to being self sourcing.

Freya Graf:

And that's like that works on so many levels. You know? I love it. Yeah. And it's just it's easier said than done. Like, as well, I just wanna acknowledge that we live in a society that actively works against us doing this and tries to disconnect us from ourselves because that leaves us more vulnerable, more disempowered, more confused and with less capacity and resources and wherewithal to actually make healthy decisions. And it leaves us vulnerable to marketing and, you know, capitalism and consumerism. It keeps us small. It keeps us disempowered.

Freya Graf:

And this is why I always talk about pleasure as activism. It's literally the most feminist shit you can do is like prioritizing your pleasure, prioritizing it in small day to day ways that aren't even sexual, and then also prioritizing working on it because it does unfortunately require some effort. Like you were saying, this stuff doesn't just naturally come. It's not going to if you've been living your whole life, you know, unable to orgasm or struggling to feel confident in the bedroom. That is no accident, and that is not just going to come good one day without some effort on your part. And it sucks because it's pretty fucking unfair that you even feel that way in the first place. But that's just the reality. And so, you know, taking matters into your own hands and empowering yourself by taking some action steps and putting in some effort, to working on this is, like, the best possible thing you can do.

Freya Graf:

And you can start so small, like you said, with just the the day to day little moments of of leaning into pleasure and prioritizing that. And something that, like a really accessible way for me. And, this might be really tricky, especially if people have had eating disorders or some sort of disordered eating or thinking around food and body image, but, food is one way that I like really savor pleasure and allow myself to have pleasure. And I find that there's a big correlation with people who have had eating disorders and a lack of ability to orgasm or feel pleasure or be embodied, because that sort of deprivation of pleasure, like not allowing ourselves to have pleasure over and over again when we don't eat that thing or we, you know, it really disconnects us from our body. And therefore, pleasure is harder to access in sexual ways as well. And it's more complex than that, but, you know, if you're practicing the art of experiencing and savouring pleasure without judgement, without guilt, without, you know, feeling selfish or indulgent or critical, then that is a muscle that you're exercising. And it will get easier and easier to just receive pleasure and allow pleasure in the bedroom without blocking it because of all of these patterns that are inbuilt, from, you know, depriving ourselves, judging ourselves, curating ourselves. Anyway, that was a bit of a rant.

Freya Graf:

But do you have anything? I'm here

Amy Campbell:

for it. I'm here for it.

Freya Graf:

Great. We'll definitely do the segment TMI. I want to get a story out of you. But do you have anything to add to that before we wrap up? Because I just said a bunch of words.

Amy Campbell:

Look. I think in that and just remember, like, you're not alone in this. Right? Like, you're we've both said many times today of, like, how often we see this, and I will put my hand up and say, I'm in the ring with you. Right? It's I'm not sitting over here going, oh my gosh. I can just always embody pleasure. I never look at my phone. Oh, like, these things are designed to make us want to lean out of our bodies and, and lean into these things. You know, even when I know this and I'll see something pop up, like you were saying before the quick fix and it it's hitting every part of my brain that goes, oh, yes.

Amy Campbell:

Like, I want that thing. And so it you're not, you're not broken, right? The system is broken and we're all in it. And it's about noticing when you're slipping up and pulling yourself back, putting yourself in spaces where this is supported and normalized, listening into this podcast and being able to go, I've got these spaces where I can reset. There's nothing wrong with you. You don't need to fix anything. We're all in this together.

Freya Graf:

Love that. So beautiful. Thank you. Hey. Me again. If you'd like to support the potty and you've already given it five stars on whatever platform you're listening on, I wanna mention that you can buy some really dope merch from the website and get yourself a labia lounge tote, tea, togs. Yep. You heard that right.

Freya Graf:

I even have labia lounge bathers. Or a cute fanny pack if that'd blow your hair back. So, if fashion isn't your passion though, you can donate to my buy me a coffee donation page, which is actually called buy me a soy chai latte because I'll be the first to admit, I'm a bit of a Melbourne cafe tosser like that, and yes, that is my coffee order. You can do a one soft donation or an ongoing membership and sponsor me for as little as 3 fat ones a month. And I also offer one on one coaching and online courses that'll help you level up your sex life and relationship with yourself and others in a really big way. So every bit helps because it ain't cheap to put out a sweet podcast, into the world every week out of my own pocket. So I will be I'm dyingly grateful if you support me and my biz financially in any of these ways. And if you like, I'll even give you a mental BJ with my mind from the lounge itself.

Freya Graf:

Saucy. And, I'll pop the links in the show notes. Thank you. Later. So now it is time for me to harvest a juicy story from you. Before we wrap up, do you have a TMI story for us, Amy?

Amy Campbell:

When I was looking at this, I was like, I don't know that I think of anything as a TMI. But there was one that I did think of, and I thought it's something and again, it's, very serendipitous today. I I feel like it's going to fit in well with what we were talking around is I do a lot of work now. And I do see this a lot more in social media or, perhaps the social media that I'm hanging out on is starting to get to know the vulva and the vagina, starting to normalize her, starting to see her as this beauty. But what I don't see a lot of is after birth. That still seems to be the ew, yuck, it's gonna be awful, it's gonna be horrible, I don't wanna look at it. And there's not a lot in that space of going, what, what is that like? What, what are the changes? What is the beauty in that? It's still seen as a bit of a, it's a bit of a yuck. Let's not talk about it.

Amy Campbell:

Put on your diaper and move on. And I have a story of my own experience in this. I was very lucky to I shouldn't say lucky. I found her and made sure that we connected. But a midwife who took me through this journey of really loving my vulva and vagina at a time where I didn't know what to do with it. Right? I was very confident with doing mirror gazing, exploring. And then after birth, I ended up giving birth on all fours, which had I known beforehand is very, prone to tearing. So I had a tear that was stitched up.

Amy Campbell:

And when you're in the hospital, they're not talking you through anything. It can feel very disembodied. Right? I, I was definitely watching from above there, disconnected. And then it's, you know, you're all put in, you're focusing on the baby. And I remember having a conversation with my midwife a few days later and she was changing the, the dressing and I said, oh, like even with everything I'd known, I was like, oh, is it awful? Like, is she just trashed? Like, is it just, like, everything that I, all those myths that I could easily go cognitively know that's not true. I just felt in that moment like, oh, I'm so disconnected. I don't is it just completely awful? And I remember she brought me a mirror and we had this really beautiful moment of mirror gazing in the same way that we would when we were perhaps getting to know our body parts and seeing the stitches, seeing what it looks like. And I remember just this absolute I was like, oh, it still looks exactly the same, still beautiful, no, it's not like it's been torn apart, there's all these horrible bits, and there was some swelling, and there was a little stitch in there, and I thought, what would have happened if she hadn't taken that moment to, and I think this embodies that like mindfulness and how you can overcome when I was stuck in my head of all the stories that society had told me, I was so far on this trajectory of like, I don't know that I can look at that in the same way again.

Amy Campbell:

But as soon as she brought me back mindfully, she's like, let's look at it and let's just talk through what you're seeing. I was able to go, oh, okay. This is what's actually there. And I don't think we talk about this a lot. I think I still see it as a bit of a joke. Right? Like and women telling the joke of, like, oh, yeah. I was ruined afterwards or it was awful. And I think, can we get embodied in this after time where a woman's sexuality is still there? Yes.

Amy Campbell:

It might not include having sex if that's not a a part of that journey in those early days, but she still is this being, right? This, this mother has been born, but she still, and we still have a role to educate and talk about what's happening to our sexual parts, our bodies, our sexuality during this time. And I feel like it is still a bit like, oh, that's too much information. You know, I I don't wanna hear about the stitches. I don't wanna hear about what was swelling. I don't it's and it's almost same as like if you don't have any of that, like you you did well, right? You did better rather than going, oh my god what a magnificent part of your body to do this really cool thing and looking at it quite in awe. You know I think you might break an album or something. You're like, oh my gosh, look what's happened to my body. But when it comes to that, it's like, oh my gosh, if anything is going on, don't talk about it.

Amy Campbell:

And then I think this leads into complications. This is where women are then, you know, two years later only going to the doctor and the doctor's like, oh my god. Like, how long have you been living with something that it could have been addressed or fixed or taken care of? But I can see how it would have happened in that cycle again because I was in it. I was about to go, oh, fuck. I'm avoiding this now. And luckily having someone in that moment to take me through the journey that I take others through. She's like, no. We're getting the mirror.

Amy Campbell:

We're doing a little session, and I think that doesn't happen very often. And I don't know it it wasn't a conversation that was welcome in my mother's group. Right? Wow. I I'm not hearing it talked about.

Freya Graf:

Wow. Yeah, it's so crazy because it's such a commonly experienced thing to go through. And yeah, the fact that we're not talking about it is super wild, sort of reminds me of, well, two things. One is often, yeah, people are so in that avoidance and they're so afraid of what they're gonna see and how they're gonna feel when they actually get a mirror out and have a look. This is regardless of whether they've given birth or not. But, you know, mirror work, yoni gazing, pussy gazing, that's a bit of an exercise that I'll commonly give. And people are desperately confronted and triggered by it, and we'll often put it off for ages. And then when they do it, most commonly, they're like, I don't know what I was worried about.

Freya Graf:

It's not as scary and hideous as I expected. So there's that. And then a bit more relevant to your story, I did a training called internal pelvic release work with a beautiful midwife, Fiona Hallinan. And our group, our training group, we all we came up with, like, a name for our WhatsApp chat thread, based around this thing. It's a joke or it's I can't remember the origin, but, you know, it's when men or partners of women giving birth have described it as watching their favourite pub burn down. Have you heard that?

Amy Campbell:

Unfortunately, yes.

Freya Graf:

Yep. And, and that's just so you know, that's exactly kind of that's so problematic. And, and then we're so afraid of, like, what's gonna happen, what it's gonna look like. It's just gonna be totally shredded. And, you know, consequently, our husbands, our partners aren't gonna be attracted anymore. We're all of a sudden hideous in our pub. You know, their pub has burnt down. There's so many things wrong with that.

Freya Graf:

But, as a bit of a tongue in cheek joke, we called our WhatsApp chat thread Save the Pub because, you know, internal Yeah. Because internal release work can shorten active labor. It can really help the pelvic floor. It can kinda save save your vagina a little bit. And so, yeah, we called it save the pub because we were just like, that's, you know, a hilarious way to kind of, yeah, I guess, humorize Humorize? I don't think that's a word. Yeah, this really problematic, kind of toxic way of looking at birth and what it does to the body. Yeah, that just felt relevant as you were speaking.

Amy Campbell:

And I think that that's maybe another part of my TMI story, being able to have and and this is where, like, you know, it it really helps to have these conversations, bring it out, like we told you before, have that partnered work where you are looking at each other's bodies with the same sort of mindful intent. And my partner during my birth just had his mind blown and I remember he, was doing a lot of filming and taking a lot of photos which he still sees as just awe inspiring. And I think when you are being able to be mindful and in that moment and disconnect from those stories, instead of my favorite pub being burned down, he was like, holy shit. My pub just did something on this planet. I don't know what what's an analogy that I could insert for him here, but he looked at it with such awe. He loves those photos. I don't always love to look at them because there's a amount of pain associated with that, but he loved that my body could do that. And I think if we had more moments where we could share and again, like, this is a skill that we had worked on.

Amy Campbell:

It's not like I was just he was just like, okay, cool. Like I, and this is stuff because we had that foundation in that moment, he was able to look at it with that nonjudgmental, that curious, excited way. And I remember his experience of it, being very different, being able to look at it and go, holy moly, like that was incredible. I think he would be highly offended to hear, or think of it as pub being burnt. And I'll have to ask him, like, an analogy, but I remember it was a sense of awe. I don't know. Like, my pub just started, like, throwing out fireworks. I don't know.

Amy Campbell:

Like, it was, like, oh my god. Like, did you know that you did this? I was like, yeah, babe. I I felt it. But just this, oh my god. I can't believe this has happened. And then also being able to reflect back. Right? When I was in that moment of, oh, gosh. I don't know what this looks like or I don't know what this is going like.

Amy Campbell:

Being able to reflect that back and really mindfully rather than being stuck in that story of, it it's ruined. My pop burnt down.

Freya Graf:

Yeah. Big time. Fuck yeah. We've covered so much ground. I really appreciate your time and your expertise, and I feel so aligned with you on all of the things we've spoken about. I hope it was, yeah, really helpful for people and, insightful and gave some practical tips. And I'll pop the links to your work in the show notes, Amy. And your book will be coming out in like a month or two from now.

Freya Graf:

So pretty soon, I'll definitely, I think you are maybe gonna see if you could arrange like a presale discount code for us. If that does happen, I'll pop it in the Labia Lounge Facebook group, and a link to where people can buy this book and pre order. And yeah, I just really appreciate this whole chat. It's been incredible. And I love, yeah, you speak with so much expertise and sensitivity and empathy and just understanding. So yeah, I feel like that was really clear and really empowering for people to hear.

Amy Campbell:

Yes. Well, thank you for having me. Absolutely beautiful talking to you, and I recommend your podcast to absolutely everyone. I think the more we can have conversations like this, it just breaks down such a huge part. So I'm really excited that I got to be part of it. And yes, I will send over, a beautiful discount code for, anyone who's listening and yeah. Thank you.

Freya Graf:

Awesome. And that's it, darling hearts. Thanks for stopping by the labia lounge. Your bum groove in the couch will be right where you left it, just waiting for you to sink back in for some more double l action next time. If you'd be a dear and subscribe, share this episode or leave a review on iTunes, then you can pat yourself on the snatch because that's a downright act of sex positive feminist activism, and you'd be supporting my vision to educate, empower, demystify and destigmatize with this here podcast. I'm also always open to feedback, topic ideas that you'd love to hear covered, questions or guest suggestions, so feel free to get in touch via my website or over on Insta. You can also send me in TMI stories to be shared anonymously on the pod. My handle is Freya Graff underscore the labia lounge, if my account hasn't been deleted for being too sex positive, which, you know, is always a possibility with censorship.

Freya Graf:

But just in case the chronic censorship finally does obliterate my social channels, I'd highly recommend going and joining my mailing list and snagging yourself some fun freebies for the trouble at www.freyagraf.com/freebies. Anyway, later labial legends. See you next time.